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    Agenda 21

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    Pris

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:34 pm

    mudra wrote:I don't think the problem  lies in ownership but rather in being stripped away from what you have honestly produced. Either maliciously, forcefully without your consent and doing same to others. This is robbery. Suppression of ownership and dishonesty are the problem.
    As we share and exchange ideas we share and exchange the products of our ideas too. I think it is something natural to do and a very valuable one when done willingly and spontaneously.  

    Love from me
    mudra


    You make a good point.  This is about willingness to share without expectation of return.  That comes down to individual choice.  We've been brought up and influenced by a competitive, diseased society/culture.  This is about fundamentally changing the way we've been taught to think.

    If money wasn't in the picture, how would most people choose?

    All those problems you list are the result of a money-based system in play.  Money/trade/barter is what's behind the so-called 'suppression of ownership' and dishonesty.

    If I produce something (what's honesty got to do with it?), I like to be acknowledged for what I produced, but that says more about my ego than anything.  Beyond that, I think the idea behind it can't be mine to own.  I take ideas from others all the time.  And, it seems I pull ideas out of the ether...  The way I choose to express myself is unique, but that's about it.  I've been influenced by so many amazing people, places, things... it would be impossible to acknowledge them all.  This is how I know I can't 'own' an idea.  I take this a step further and question how anything can be owned.

    Imitation may be the highest form of flattery, but money needs to be removed from the equation to eliminate profiteering/disparity.

    In the meantime, I do my best not to be concerned about it and share what I can.  And, I am grateful for whatever I can get.  Just think?  Where would I be without other people's LOLcats? Very Happy




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    mudra

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:30 am

    The Technocratic Agenda: Sustainable Development and Climate Eugenics

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUb2ITS3Vmw


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    mudra

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:49 pm

    Pris wrote:

    [size=16]You make a good point.  This is about willingness to share without expectation of return.  That comes down to individual choice.  We've been brought up and influenced by a competitive, diseased society/culture.  This is about fundamentally changing the way we've been taught to think.

    If money wasn't in the picture, how would most people choose?

    All those problems you list are the result of a money-based system in play.  Money/trade/barter is what's behind the so-called 'suppression of ownership' and dishonesty.


    No I don't think it's that simple Pris. Suppression of ownership and dishonesty would also occur in a moneyless, tradeless or barterless system when scarcity arises. Money puts a symbolic value on things but things have a value of their own which is their necessity level, the use they have. There should be no problem to share without expectation of return when you have more than enough an amount of apples in your cellar but if you only have only one to feed yourself and family with that will change the attitude completely. But those that are starving and don't have one apple at all would probably take it from you.  

    It is important  to understand the value of things for this allows to be responsible for them  and then learn to be creative about it so as to generate abundance.

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    Pris

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:00 am

    mudra wrote:
    Pris wrote:

    You make a good point.  This is about willingness to share without expectation of return.  That comes down to individual choice.  We've been brought up and influenced by a competitive, diseased society/culture.  This is about fundamentally changing the way we've been taught to think.

    If money wasn't in the picture, how would most people choose?

    All those problems you list are the result of a money-based system in play.  Money/trade/barter is what's behind the so-called 'suppression of ownership' and dishonesty.



    No I don't think it's that simple Pris. Suppression of ownership and dishonesty would also occur in a moneyless, tradeless or barterless system when scarcity arises. Money puts a symbolic value on things but things have a value of their own which is their necessity level, the use they have. There should be no problem to share without expectation of return when you have more than enough an amount of apples in your cellar but if you only have only one to feed yourself and family with that will change the attitude completely. But those that are starving and don't have one apple at all would probably take it from you.  

    It is important  to understand the value of things for this allows to be responsible for them  and then learn to be creative about it so as to generate abundance.

    Love from me
    mudra


    I really don't 'get' your 'suppression of ownership' concern... that can only happen in a scarcity environment and that would be eliminated when you remove money/barter/trade.

    The 'value' placed on things based on whose yardstick?  Everything is of equal value.  The lie we're taught is everything has different value.  This is 'scarcity thinking' and it exists because of the monetary system.  They go hand-in-hand.  We're way too smart for this nonsense.  Nature is about abundance, not scarcity.  It really is that simple -- when we cooperate, contribute, and share -- without 'value' placed on anyone or anything, there will be abundance for all.

    Jacque Fresco, The Future by Design:

    ...we must achieve a level of production that's so high that scarcity no longer exists.

    In Michael Tellinger's UBUNTU plan, if I remember, initially the community produces three times more than it needs.  It is not hard to 'over-produce' when all effort is for the people by the people.  There's no 'middle-man'.  While still inside the monetary system, the UBUNTU community sells off the other two-thirds of what it produces at a very reduced price to neighbouring non-UBUNTU communities as a way to draw them in.  They cannot remain competitive in such an environment.  This is how the monetary system can be undermined.

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    mudra

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:27 am

    Pris wrote:


    [size=16]I really don't 'get' your 'suppression of ownership' concern... that can only happen in a scarcity environment and that would be eliminated when you remove money/barter/trade.

    The 'value' placed on things based on whose yardstick?  Everything is of equal value.  The lie we're taught is everything has different value.  This is 'scarcity thinking' and it exists because of the monetary system.  They go hand-in-hand.  We're way too smart for this nonsense.  Nature is about abundance, not scarcity.  It really is that simple -- when we cooperate, contribute, and share -- without 'value' placed on anyone or anything, there will be abundance for all.


    I can't think with this A=A=A=A reasoning regarding the value of things Pris. To me everything isn't of equal value. Everything that is useful has value on a general level but there is a specific value things have that are directly related to one's need for them. Hence values go hand in hand with demand despite money being attributed to them or not.
    If you strictly apply this to food not all foods have the same value but rather each food has a value of it's own that when properly combined will keep your body healthy. My own values regarding things fluctuate across the day according to my needs. I highly value a bed to lay on at night when I am tired but don't pay attention to it the rest of the time. I will highly value an orange or any other food that contains vit C when my body craves for it but not otherwise.
    There is no demand without a lack . This is what generates cooperation, contribution and share .Otherwise things would remain static. This is what puts energy in motion. If there is abundance then fine it will only mean the lacks of everyone concerned when they arise would be able to be fulfilled right away.
    Regarding food I know abundance can easily be obtained with permaculture as I have seen luxurious gardens coming out from farming with nature so I am not surprise the Ubuntu villages are able to have a surplus that they can then trade.

    Love from me
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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:03 pm

    mudra wrote:
    Pris wrote:


    I really don't 'get' your 'suppression of ownership' concern... that can only happen in a scarcity environment and that would be eliminated when you remove money/barter/trade.

    The 'value' placed on things based on whose yardstick?  Everything is of equal value.  The lie we're taught is everything has different value.  This is 'scarcity thinking' and it exists because of the monetary system.  They go hand-in-hand.  We're way too smart for this nonsense.  Nature is about abundance, not scarcity.  It really is that simple -- when we cooperate, contribute, and share -- without 'value' placed on anyone or anything, there will be abundance for all.



    I can't think with this A=A=A=A reasoning regarding the value of things Pris. To me everything isn't of equal value. Everything that is useful has value on a general level but there is a specific value things have that are  directly related to one's need for them. Hence values go hand in hand with demand despite money being attributed to them or not.
    If you strictly apply this to food not all foods have the same value but rather each food has a value of it's own that when properly combined will keep your body healthy. My own values regarding things fluctuate across the day according to my needs. I highly value a bed to lay on at night when I am tired but don't pay attention to it the rest of the time. I will highly value an orange or any other food that contains vit C when my body craves for it but not otherwise.
    There is no demand without a lack . This is what generates cooperation, contribution and share .Otherwise things would remain static. This is what puts energy in motion. If there is abundance then fine it will only mean the lacks of everyone concerned when they arise would be able to be fulfilled right away.
    Regarding food I know abundance can easily be obtained with permaculture as I have seen luxurious gardens coming out from farming with nature so I am not surprise the Ubuntu villages are able to have a surplus that they can then trade.

    Love from me
    mudra




    I appreciate this chance to discuss this subject with you, mudra.  Solutions may be simple, but that doesn't mean they're easy to implement.  Some ideas are a challenge for me to put into words because it requires such a different way of thinking than I've been used to for a great part of my life.  Everything requires practice.  Please be patient because I'm learning as I go and I may not always use the best terminology.  I'm doing my best.  Cheerful

    Does an apple have more value than an orange?  Does soil have more value than a worm?  Does a brain surgeon have more value in society than a plumber?  Does gold have more value than a loaf of bread?  Comparisons like this don't make any sense, but we do it all the time because of how we've been indoctrinated into the current society/culture.  If anything, we generally lack gratitude because of it.  In contrast, when we consider everything to have equal value -- to be just as important as everything else, we learn to have deep gratitude for everything without judgement.  There may be more need for something at any given moment than something else, but that doesn't mean it has more value over something else.


    Jacque Fresco, The Future by Design:
    Your range of your thought is limited by the dominant values of your society, so learning to be flexible in values takes a long time.

    Mudra, I think you may be mixing up the idea of scarcity with lack.

    Jacque Fresco, The Future by Design:

    In a non-monetary-based society -- a resource-based society, people have access to anything that they need, somewhat like a public library.  They can go down and access a camera or a bicycle or a wristwatch -- anything that they need is available without a pricetag.  That would mean we must achieve a level of production that's so high that scarcity no longer exists.

    Many people wonder what would drive people if they have access to all their needs... What would happen to incentive?  What will motivate people... or something gained -- what's the gain?  Although the gain is that materials are available, what will motivate them on to do better than what they have?  Need.  We will always lack, meaning, that we cannot achieve perfection, we cannot achieve truly dynamic equilibrium.  We will always be in some form of disequilibrium.  With the elimination of scarcity, the essential incentives change toward problem-solving in general.

    When nations or groups of people do not have access to resources, their behaviour is difficult to manage.  It becomes aberrant, they lose their mental equilibrium, they cannot arrive at appropriate conclusions.  Once people are free -- mentally, of debt, obligation, servitude -- then they can seek new horizons that they've never even drempt possible before.

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:30 pm

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    When you walk by a fruit stand, isn't your instinct just to reach out and pick a fruit and eat it?  But, that is not allowed.  We are denied life around us all the time.  We live in a 'death/scarcity' culture and yet there is abundance everywhere.  It's sadistic.  How many times have adults had to explain to children that they can't have something unless they pay for it first?  A child does not comprehend this.  Only once the child has been fully indoctrinated (brainwashed) into the current society/culture do they fully come to understand.  We allow authority -- with their oppressive systems, rules and laws -- power over us, and by doing so we stand under their societal values.


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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:38 pm

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    My child doesn't have more value than your child.  Everyone and everything must be treated equally.


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    mudra

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:07 pm

    I appreciate the exchange we have too Pris :)

    When I speak of value I am not thinking about this within the frame of thought of a monetary system Pris.
    To me it's more on the level of the extra qualities something comes to  have when embued with the passion, inspiration and love someone put in it's  creation.  That makes all the difference.

    I remember for example being invited to a party a friend made to celebrate her 40's birthday. She had prepared a vegetarian buffet. Everything was so delicious and gave me so much joy that I realized not only did she cook well but she prepared everything with love and it is  this particular quality that I could feel in that meal which gave it so much value in my eyes. This was the real booster. She prepared the food with skill and love and I because I was sufficiently hungry then was open to receive it fully and appreciate the value of what she had done.

    The value of a meal prepared in a souless way with all the robotics of industry for example has not the same value as the same  meal prepared with Heart put into it.

    A child is as important as another child but the value of every human being is not the same.

    An egg that comes from a battery has not the same value as an egg that comes from chickens that run in the open. And these last ones don't have the same value as eggs coming from chickens that are truly loved and respected.
    I did experience this directly. The best eggs I have ever eaten came from someone that talked to his chickens daily and cuddled them. Made a HUGE difference ! It was pure extatic pleasure.

    In Soul inspired creations you can feel that extra quality of conscious energy that make them kind of alive. They not only serve you well when you happen to need them but they are also nourishment for the soul.

    I believe for a society to find harmony  human beings should exactly do what they truly love to do for then they will do it well . We are all unique so everyone would perfectly fit in the place his heart aspires for . . We would quicky see astounding people around and be one of those ourselves.  That would be Consciousness soaring everywhere and playing around . We would literally craft every moment in the moment , we would do it with expertise and  it would be joy.

    That's what I mean by Know the value of things and then arrange to produce them abunduntly. Know thyself and unleash that creative energy you have within. Why would  some people want to suppress and control others when they rise from their ashes and find the real power is the one they have within ?

    In nowadays society many of us don't even have a job that they like but rather a job they do for convenience. The products that comes out of this are dead. They are soul less and contain even an energy pattern that is full of suffering and destruction. Their value on a scale of " life to death " are literally one of succumb energy wise.

    Imagine for a moment that overnight the money system is removed from the society we are in . You wake up and everything everywhere on this planet is free of charge. It would still be a miserable planet until people realize the real value of things in the sense I developped above, for only then will they be able to respect themselves enough to see the world with  new eyes, new I's . I's of greater value then the small I's they were used to be when slaves from their own ignorance.

    Lack and scarcity : yes they are not the same but to me they are nonetheless different levels of something that is missing. There is no lack of soul in anyone but there is sure scarcity in the majority of Earthians to be fully aware of it. That is the prime scarcity imho and the prime one that needs remedy. If transhumanism takes momentum and turn our bodies and brains into programmed AI's we might well fall in a state where we no longer will be able to figure it out anymore.


    “A path is only a path, and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you . . . Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself alone, one question . . . Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't it is of no use.”
    ― Carlos Castaneda


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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:58 pm

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    Thank you, mudra!  I think I'm starting to see what you mean... this seems somewhat complicated and maybe it needs to be.  I'm always trying to simplify and maybe I oversimplify and miss the point.

    I don't eat eggs anymore, but I remember the difference you describe very clearly.  What I also remember is pouring my heart out into the egg I'm about to eat regardless of whether it is a factory egg or a free range egg...  in loving gratitude for all things being equal in my mind.  When something is more 'diminished' -- its life-force dimmed -- I pour myself into it with even more urgency...  Does that make sense?  Even through the ugliness you can find the exquisite beauty when you look deep enough and fill it with your love...  I really do think we change the fabric of our reality with our thoughts.

    I also think we've both come to the same conclusion from our own unique perspectives.


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    mudra

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:51 pm

    I understand completely what you mean Pris. It does make sense indeed Cheerful
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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:05 am

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    I've been thinking how most of us have been brainwashed to equate 'value' with dollar signs.  It's terrible.  That's why I think I have a hang-up with it.  The idea of putting a price tag on anything (including people, labour, etc.) makes me very angry.

    I'm also disgusted with branding... particularly when it's something made by nature (technically, what isn't made by nature?) and it gets processed and labelled as if it's now something 'owned' and ready to be sold as a 'product'.

    As for being owned...  How people can feel good about being branded -- willingly wearing visible brand names -- is beyond my ability to comprehend.

    It's bad enough that practically everything around us is slapped with product names and logos (the psychotic few certainly like their symbols).  And, now these 'products' are starting to get 'smart', spying on us and tracking our every move.  It's gotten so bad that we are considered a threat to the system (and potential terrorists) just for wanting to maintain our right to privacy.  It's to be expected when we've allowed the system to be run by terrorists.

    Barcodes...  Embedding the 666 in there...  They just had to get that one in since they are, after all, superstitious, Luciferian following, religious fanatics with a penchant for numbers.  Meanwhile, we, the conned-Sumers, merrily continue on, oblivious, while any freedom we may have had has been relentlessly stripped away by these maniacs.

    The wars being perpetrated, the wanton destruction and poisoning of the entire planet -- all driven by a fanatical few who just so happen to have some kind of hate trip out against the general population and have managed to take control over our governments.  We've been living in their freakish death culture of hate, fear, disease, materialism, perversion... while the monetary system is their weapon of choice used to perpetuate greed, competition, disparity, and corruption globally while enslaving us all.  It's Babylon all over again.  We've danced this wicked dance before.

    Isn't it about time we wake up and stop playing their game?




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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:40 pm

    I understand the hang -up Pris. It's hard to wake up to the desolation of this place
    and realize it won't be fixed overnight nor will anyone be able to do so alone.

    Yet once our eyes are open and we begin to See , we reach a point in Consciousness that won't allow
    us to sway back. That's a light of its own, some stable point of reference in the middle
    of chaos and some powerful vector for actions to take place that are driven by Heart
    and will born from integrity.For that's what the human race has lost unable to steer it's
    own boat in accordance and resonance with the laws of nature.
    By being focused on dominating nature we have given rise to a technology that disenpowered us.
    We don't use telepathy anymore, we use cellphones and emails. We don't "transpose "either, we use
    cars, planes and trains, our legs...for that. We consider illness a norm and medicine the answer. Intuition, contemplation, innerstanding
    have been replaced by books to search answers in, we have lost sight of what it means to learn by Heart, we have lost understanding of who we are
    and fallen in complete apathy. And if no one knows how to govern himself properly anymore
    how would we then expect external agents of governance to do so sanely. If no one knows anymore what life is, what a universe is, what drives harmony and what drives unbalance. If we only keep scratching the surface of it without considering the whole in a holistic way then we will only be able to gather finite knowledge to loose ourselves in ad infinitum instead of infinite knowingness to expand into.

    The world is but a mirror of how far we have gone to forget about everything that is worth knowing
    and instead accumulated a wealth of knowledge that is useless or worse destructive ,
    when the Heart is closed and the soul on " vacation ".  

    It begins with one whose clarity shines bright that then triggers something sound in another and so on making wider and wider
    ripples washing away the ignorance , the lies , the thick veil of blackness and the return of a power
    that has nothing to do with dominion.

    It has begun, it does take place. Some have been paving the road before us , some will pave the road after us.
    And in between is us able to contribute to pave the road too by choice or by grace.

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:29 pm

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    So beautiful...  I really needed to hear that.  Thank you, mudra.



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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:36 pm

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    I read this book when I was fourteen.

    Sometimes, it still feels like this.




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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:22 pm


    You carry the sword of Justice Pris



    Hexagram 21 of the I Ching comes to mind

    " Cutting Through "


    Fire over Thunder


    Stormy Weather! Cutting through Crap! Cleansing the Air!



    " Cutting Through " also named " Biting Through "
    sees what's right and what's wrong, and decides to balance them through justice.

    Sunlight slicing through a storm; lucid thought slicing through the mind's usual fog and cacophany. Rapid, precise action that does what needs to be done. Shedding light, clear thought, and appropriate intention on delusion, injustice, ignorance. Biting through bullshit with unclouded mind, to reveal what's real.

    Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are.

    (Augustine)


    http://ichingquotes.blogspot.be/2008/07/hexgram-21-biting-through.html

    The Karen

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  Pris on Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:20 pm

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    Mudra, I'm honoured.  Thank you! Hugs







    You have such strength, wisdom, and balance.
    I can see why you like this picture.
    It matches you.

    Carol wrote:
    Raising your vibration



    mudra wrote:
    Thank You Carol cheers
    I like the last one best  I love you

    Love from me
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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:26 am

    Ha ... smiling
    It felt so good to dive once more into that painting Carol posted.
    Let me this be a potential to forge life with and improve upon Pris.

    Flowers

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    Re: Agenda 21

    Post  mudra on Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:45 pm

    "A National Carbon Price" Is The Nail In The Coffin For Canadians

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXNymGPtyd8


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