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    Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

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    Floyd

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Floyd on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:42 am

    Hi

    There is no bah humbug to it really nor is it to do with emotion.

    It is simply to do with facts about the situation, ie the origins of Ascensionist religion and the pseudo science that it incorporates and supports.

    Saying things like 'keep it light' are unhelpful IMHO because what we need to do is examine what is bad about Ascensionism and New Age pseudo science and see how debilitating it is in the search for a better world that is not led by a merry band of charlatans.

    Im not one to waste my time looking for excuses for this movement so we need to away from it because it doesn't offer any solutions for us as they are all based on false premises. Its important that we don't cloud our judgment with airy fairy language and sympathy for the devil (so to speak) when dealing with such issues.
    I am comfortable with that and it is empowering if others are not that is entirely up to them but they should tread cautiously in the swamps of deceit.

    If Ascension is about ego. self redemption, elitism, escapism, profit, deceit and rejection of responsibility, then we need to look for answers that deal with, how to deal with real planetary issues. Actions speak louder than words. Transformation only comes through action or doing things. Taking responsibility.

    Ascension is a religion that discourages us from facing up to our responsibilities now in lieu of a promised land that will not be delivered. Another good reason why not to pay good money to many of its priests and priestesses.

    So my advice would be to say do we need to really need to listen to these people and the answer would be no.

    As with all of these issues they will speak for themselves in the future. When people have not floated up like little corks to a heavenly dimension they will be annoyed but the problems we all face together here on this planet will still be here. That is the power of the astral ghouls being channeled and contacted. To throw things of course.

    Lets see where we are in five years time. Im sure new dates will be set and new events channeled in the interim as old promises and predictions fade without any materialisation.

    There are many false prophets it just seems most of them are in the ascension business these days lol.
    albino
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    Aquaries1111

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Aquaries1111 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:57 am

    The Dot Connector' Deep Insights of the Human Condition!



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    Carol
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Carol on Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:18 am

    Threecaster wrote: Hmmm Am I detecting a palatable taste of "Bah Humbug!" from Floyd? Bleh
    Enlightened

    Perhaps Floyd's role is to remind folks to be sure to separate the wheat from the shaft and not waste time getting suckered in my illegitimate gurus of one sort or another. Only in most instances he's preaching to the choir. Been there, done that, got it figured out.

    Ascension is not about ego. It's more about the desire to spiritually evolve to the point where one is off the karma's recycling wheel and where as spirit one can move on into the higher spiritual dimensions. If anything, ascension is about dissolving ego to where what is left is just spirit. This is why the master gives a mantra (which with Sant Mat is the names of other ascended beings who have authority over the deferent levels of higher spiritual dimensional realms). As the devotee spends several hours a day in meditation doing the repetitions both ego and karma tend to dissolve freeing the soul to spiritually evolve. Those people who do this practice are so self-effacing, almost invisible that they tend to go unnoticed. The energy that emanates from then is peaceful, without conflict and without ego. If anyone was to have the opportunity to be in one of these gatherings where they come together to listen to the Spiritual Master's discourse they would witness first hand just how calm and peaceful this type of assembly is. And I'm talking of a few thousand folks at these gatherings. If anything, folks are embarrassed if ego gets activated as this is an indicator that the person doing this isn't really putting in the required hours of daily meditation. Along with this is path is no consumption of drugs/alcohol or meat/animal products. One is to practice 'kindness'. This is not a religion. However Sant Mat is the path of the saints as one realizes that to evolve spiritually one must take hold of ego and dissolve it under the guidance of a spiritual master. A master is someone who has already evolved spiritually and speaks of spiritual matters. Almost all of the discourse revolve around the blocks to meditation and how to overcome them. The goal is to develop a personal relationship with the divine through the daily practice of meditation. A spiritual master is one who has accomplished this.


    _________________
    What is life?
    It is the flash of a firefly in the night, the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.

    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol
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    devakas

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:54 am

    Nice.

    spiritually we all are the same, no matter what the other meanings we will come up with. This is explained in Srimad Bhagavatam. The key is our duty, service to God. In the highest realization in other spiritual worlds all living entities know it and do the best duties they can. Our humans' duties as atheists determine our level of crap . It is true that humanity first need to get rid of ego. Teachings, right teachings are over due.. Right duty can be various, but only and only with God in center. Then is works. We are not creators whatever we may imagine.

    The animal's deadly enemy is its single minded as its actions are predictable. Man's deadly enemy is his multi multi mind wondering in this material world constantly and trying to satisfy his body or subtle body mind. This lust is human deadly enemy. Matter created in 3 modes, passion -creativity, goodness - maintenance, ignorance - destruction. We should be above all three, to get glimpse of our true duties.
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    devakas

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:11 pm

    When we truly love we serve, right? and then it is getting more interesting, mind blowing sunny stuff....
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    devakas

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:14 pm

    opps...


    Last edited by devakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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    LeeEllisMusic

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  LeeEllisMusic on Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm

    Carol wrote:The words 'by the grace of god' comes to mind when contemplating accession. I've been giving this some more thought after listening to some other contactees explanations of energy and mind-control programming that so many are bombarded with. The goal of the negatives is to hold as many souls back as possible to basically provide food at the energetic level for the negatives. Only the poor sots (those who caught up in mind control programming) have no clue as to how to free themselves of this mind-control programming. The programming is even more pervasive with electronic media and even from what they identified as satellites that encircle the globe. However, irrespective of all of this and what humanity is suffering through I have faith. Faith is the bridge to higher spiritual dimensions and intention is the gas to get from point A to point B. If one's intention is to access the frequency that is innate within one's own heart one can ascend to that frequency. All of life resonates to and at various frequencies. This is a given. Learning how to fine tune the frequency is key.

    Having studied under different spiritual masters, there are a variety of different methodologies to fine-tuning one's own frequency that they provide to those that seek this information. Basically, one learns how free oneself of material desire and instead focus on reuniting to the divine (the frequency within the heart), which creates a wormhole for spirit to pass through. Needless to say there are many who have a whole host of methodologies on how to create a path to higher spiritual dimensional realms, but I've discovered the simplest method is still difficult to follow as ones own will must be strong to practice meditation for this experience to manifest. Yet there are also those souls - by the grace of god - who are instantly pulled through into this higher spiritual dimension. Basically, everyone is on a spiritual journey as this is something that exists as a collective that moves us forward, with respect to our individual and collective spiritual growth - and development.

    I suspect that the greatest challenge is not to get trapped by the negatives that would rather hold souls back for their own selfish purposes. Yet I do wonder if indeed the frequency of our own solar system is in for a significant change where the negatives cannot survive. Is there really an end in sight or are we all just caught up in self-delusion. Will the current mind-control conditioning keep us trapped within this negative frequency or can we truly move on to a different kinder frequency where we all get along.

    I think our only hope is to keep reconnecting to this compassion frequency that dwells within our hearts and keep projecting the feelings of compassion outwards to others hearts so as to quicken (think of a tuning fork) these other beings, so that we share in this enlighten state of being together.


    I love this post!

    Thank you for your Heart Wisdom, Carol I love you
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    devakas

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:08 pm

    yes, by purifying senses we purify our intelligence, I agree with LeeEllisMusic.

    When non duality knowledge will be established, negativity will kill itself.
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    devakas

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:17 pm

    I agree with you Floyd this PostModern Buddhism religion culture gets angry easily and they don't look practically.
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    Threecaster

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Threecaster on Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:37 pm

    Floyd wrote:So my advice would be to say do we need to really need to listen to these people and the answer would be no.

    ...

    Lets see where we are in five years time.... lol.

    I do agree that there are many who have less-than-everyone's interest behind their intent.

    I must also say I'm with you on "Let's wait and see", I keep having the feeling that 99% of this whole business is hype.
    But that leaves the 1% where something genuinely interesting is going to happen.

    And thank you again for ferreting out these not so positive influences.

    But I ask: Whom do you think offers real guidance? (Carol, thanks BTW for the lovely response. Flowers )

    I'm not defending nor attacking either Floyd's POV, or Acentionism. I see both things I agree with and points I disagree with.

    You say there is much pseudo-science (of which I agree), but at the same time there is a "spiritual technology" of which we are just now beginning to understand. (and many who do not, but say they do anyways)

    Consistency is the main reference for our sciences, I posit that many of the effects our spiritual actions cause are consistent and repeatable, we just lack the sophistication insight to allow for the variables and measurement of such effects.(and there's no money in it...so therefore it's unimportant... Suspect )

    In my last post I did change contexts from addressing Floyd, to addressing readers in general; this maybe created some confusion about what You think about what I think about what Floyd thinks.... scratch I apologize for casting confusion... jocolor

    So Floyd, in this age of Ascended Charlatans, whom (in a modest public eye) do you think is giving it to us straight and can be reasonably trusted?


    Question


    p.s.: Devakas: I agree completely with your non-duality statement. It seems that whenever someone offers you only two choices, there is almost always a third they say nothing about...(and it's often the better choice!) So messages that polarise may have something else to say entirely! cyclops


    Last edited by Threecaster on Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : better phrasing)
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:49 pm

    orthodoxymoron wrote:As you read this thread (if you read this thread) imagine it being spoken by a cross between Rachael Constantine, Vala Mal Doran, Adria, Anna, Ellen White, Gillian Weir, Gillian Ford, Desmond Ford, and Robert Schuller -- in the context of the New York Queen-Ship!!!!. Take what I just said, very Siriusly. What if the 'Abomination of Desolation' is the Human Race?? What if the 'Cleansing of the Sanctuary' means 'Cleansing the Universe of the Human Race (Sinners) and Sin'? What if the 'Vindicating of the Sanctuary' means the 'Vindication of the Ancient and Traditional Theocratic Government of God'? What if 'Restoring the Sanctuary to its Rightful State' means 'Restoring the Universe to its Pre-Human State'? Was 1844 the Beginning of the End? Will the Extermination of Humanity be the Final Atonement for Sin? What Would Daniel Say? What Would Des Say? What Would Loki Do? Consider William Miller, the Millerite Movement, and the Great Disappointment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerite_Movement The Jesuits know what I'm talking about. I exist within a very strange space -- and I can't begin to describe how much it hurts. The Horror.

    The Millerites were the followers of the teachings of William Miller who, in 1833, first shared publicly his belief in the coming Second Advent of Jesus Christ in roughly the year 1843.

    Origins

    Miller was a prosperous farmer, a Baptist lay preacher and student of the Bible, living in northern New York, in the region of that state which has come to be known as the Burned-over district. Through years of intensive study of symbolic meaning of the prophecies of Daniel and using the year-day method of prophetic interpretation, Miller became convinced that the date of Christ's Second Coming was revealed in Bible prophecy. In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15, “I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,—on or before 1843.”[1] This document however, remained private for many years.

    Miller did eventually share his views—first, to a few friends privately, and later to some ministerial acquaintances. Initially he was disappointed at the lack of response from those he spoke to. “To my astonishment, I found very few who listened with any interest. Occasionally, one would see the force of the evidence, but the great majority passed it by as an idle tale.”[2]

    Miller states that he began his public lecturing in the village of Dresden, Washington County, New York, some 16 miles from his home, on “the first Sabbath in August 1833.”[3] However, as Sylvester Bliss points out, “The printed article from which this is copied was written in 1845. By an examination of his correspondence, it appears that he must have begun to lecture in August 1831. So that this date is a mistake of the printer or an error in Mr. Miller's memory.”[1]

    In 1832, Miller submitted a series of sixteen articles to the Vermont Telegraph—a Baptist paper. The first of these was published on May 15, and Miller writes of the public’s response, “I began to be flooded with letters of inquiry respecting my views, and visitors flocked to converse with me on the subject.”[4] In 1834, unable to personally comply with many of the urgent requests for information and the invitations to travel and preach that he received, Miller published a synopsis of his teachings in a “little tract of 64 pages.” These he “...scattered, the most of them gratuitously, sending them in reply to letters of inquiry and to places which I could not visit.”[5]

    A national movement

    From 1840 onward, Millerism was transformed from an “obscure, regional movement into a national campaign.”[6] The key figure in this transformation was Joshua Vaughan Himes—the pastor of Chardon Street Chapel in Boston, and an able and experienced publisher. Though Himes did not fully accept Miller’s ideas until 1842, he established the fortnightly paper Signs of the Times to publicize them. The first edition was published on February 28, 1840, with Himes as editor. It continues to be published by the Seventh-day Adventist Church as a monthly evangelistic magazine under the same name.

    Periodical literature played an important part in the rapid and widespread dissemination of Millerite beliefs. “From first to last the power of the press, in this particular form, was one of the foremost factors in the success of this now vigorous, expanding movement.”[7] In addition to the Signs of the Times based in Boston, Millerite papers were published in numerous cities including New York, Philadelphia, Rochester, Cleveland, and Montreal.[8] There were at least 48 Millerite periodicals that circulated in the period leading up to the Great Disappointment. The majority of these, however, were quite short-lived—often a new paper was started whenever a Millerite evangelistic campaign entered a new area.[9]

    As well as publications based on geography, the Millerites issued various papers targeting different groups. The Advent Message to the Daughters of Zion focused on female readers, and was first published in May 1844. The Advent Shield was a more academically orientated paper published in Boston and edited by Joshua Vaughan Himes, Sylvester Bliss, and Apollos Hale. Its announced purpose was to “defend the doctrine from the attacks of the enemies, to exhibit the unscriptural position of the opponents, and furnish the truth to those who were ready to receive it.” While only three issues were produced: in May 1844, January 1845, and a final issue in April 1845; it was the largest of the Millerite papers, the first two issues each having 144 pages, and the final having 250.[10]

    As the various dates of Christ’s predicted return approached, Millerite publishing went into high gear. In May 1843, 21,000 copies of the various Millerite papers were published for distribution each week. In New York alone, in the five month period ending April 1843, 600,000 copies of various publications were distributed. In December 1843, Himes proposed the publication of one million tracts, while in May 1844, he announced that five million copies of Millerite publications had been distributed up to that time.[11]

    A researcher examined the geographical distribution of correspondents to the Millerite periodical Signs of the Times from 1840 to 1847. Out of a total of 615 correspondents, she found that the 131 correspondents from New York state provided the largest group. Vermont provided another 107, with New England (excluding Vermont) accounting for a further 279. Outside of these areas, representation was sparse: 23 in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland combined; just 65 from the west—including 20 from Ohio; and only 10 from the Southern states.[12] While it seems then, that the vast majority of Miller’s followers were of local origin, his message was not limited to his local area—nor even to America. Miller preached across the border in Canada’s Eastern Townships on at least three occasions: in 1835, 1838 and 1840. He made a number of converts there and gained the support of some of the local clergy. At least five Millerite papers were published in Canada: the Faithful Watchman—published in Sherbrooke from January 1843; the influential Voice of Elijah, published in Montreal from June 1843; the short-lived Hope of the Church in St. Thomas in 1844; Behold, He Cometh in Hamilton, and the Bridegroom’s Herald in Toronto, both from mid-1844.[13]

    Many travellers or emigrants to the United States who had heard the Second Advent message there returned to their home districts to preach. From 1841, Millerite evangelists appeared in Great Britain, also, though he never travelled there himself.In addition to the nearly $1000 that Miller and Himes spent supplying literature to enquirers and evangelists in Great Britain; “there is evidence that [in Liverpool, Bristol, and other ports] local Millerite pioneers borrowed copies of Miller’s works and Adventist magazines from visiting American sea captains and merchants.”[14] As well as utilizing imported American literature, two Millerite papers were published locally in Great Britain: the Second Advent Harbinger in Bristol, and the British Midnight Cry in Liverpool.[15] The Millerite message entered Australia through the Canadian paper Voice of Elijah. Thomas Playford, living in Adelaide, was converted thus. Playford spread the Millerite message in Australia, even publishing a book of his sermons: Discourses on the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. Playford’s preaching apparently resulted in a number of converts.[16] An English Millerite, James William Bonham, apparently sent copies of The Midnight Cry to Van Diemen’s Land (now Tasmania), though no record remains of their effect.[17] In a similar manner, converts were made in Norway and Chile. A letter published in The Midnight Cry of October 12, 1843, from a Mrs O. S. Burnham of Kaloa, The Sandwich Islands, (now Hawaii) stated that she and her husband had accepted the Millerite message and were worshipping with a small company of believers.[18]

    Despite the urging of his supporters, Miller never personally set an exact date for the expected Second Advent. However, in response to their urgings he did narrow the time-period to sometime in the year 1843, stating: “My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take possession of the same, with all the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844”[19] March 21, 1844 passed without incident, and the majority of Millerites maintained their faith. On March 25, Miller wrote to Himes, “I am still looking for the Dear Savior…. The time, as I have calculated it, is now filled up; and I expect every moment to see the Savior descend from heaven. I have now nothing to look for but this glorious hope.”[20] As George R. Knight states, the movement’s survival was a result of the fact that, “the Millerite leaders had been ‘soft’ on the time…. They allowed for the possibility of small errors in their calculations and even in some of their historic dates.”[21] In fact, on February 28, Miller himself had written, “If Christ comes, as we expect, we will sing the song of victory soon; if not, we will watch, and pray, and preach until he comes, for soon our time, and all prophetic days, will have been filled.”[22]

    Further discussion and study resulted in the brief adoption of a new date—April 18, 1844, one based on the Karaite Jewish calendar (as opposed to the Rabbinic calendar).[23] Like the previous date, April 18 passed without Christ’s return. More study led the Millerites to believe that they had entered the “tarrying time”—a time of waiting after which Christ would finally return—spoken of in Matthew 25:5 and Habakkuk 3:2-3. This belief sustained the Millerites through the months of May to July, 1844. As Knight notes however, this period represented a “flatness in Millerite evangelism,” when even the Millerite preachers must have experienced diminished certainty.[24]

    In August 1844 at a camp-meeting in Exeter, New Hampshire, everything changed when Samuel S. Snow presented a message of earth-shattering proportions—what became known as the “seventh-month” message or the “true midnight cry.”[25] In a complex discussion based on scriptural typology, Snow presented his conclusion (still based on the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel 8:14), that Christ would return on, “the tenth day of the seventh month of the present year, 1844.”[26] Again using the calendar of the Karaite Jews, this date was determined to be October 22, 1844. This “seventh month message” “spread with a rapidity unparalleled in the Millerite experience” amongst the general population. The situation caught many of the established leaders—including Himes and Miller himself, by surprise. Knight reports that, “There is no evidence that any of the foremost Millerite preachers accepted this grass-roots development until late September. Most did not accept it until early October.”[27]

    The Great Disappointment

    October 22, 1844, that day of great hope and promise, ended like any other day [28] to the disappointment of the Millerites. Both Millerite leaders and followers were left generally bewildered and disillusioned. Responses varied: some Millerites continued to look daily for Christ’s return, others predicted different dates—among them April, July, and October 1845. Some theorized that the world had entered the seventh millennium, the “Great Sabbath”, and that, therefore, the saved should not work. Others acted as children, basing their belief on Jesus’ words in Mark 10:15, “Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” O. J. D. Pickands used Revelation 14:14-16 to teach that Christ was now sitting on a white cloud, and must be prayed down. Probably the majority however, simply gave up their beliefs and attempted to rebuild their lives.[29] Some members rejoined their previous denominations while a substantial number became Quakers.[30]

    Post 'Great Disappointment' Millerism

    Main article: Adventism

    In the confusion that followed the Great Disappointment it seemed that almost every Millerite had an opinion—all of them different. Miller said that in one week he received sixteen different papers advocating different views, all claiming to be Advent papers.[31] Much of the responsibility for this proliferation of viewpoints must be shouldered by Miller, whose Rules of Biblical Interpretation outlined a method of biblical study that encouraged each person to read the Bible and to “do theology” for themselves.

    By mid-1845, doctrinal lines amongst the various Millerite groups began to solidify, emphasizing their differences—a process Knight terms “sect building.”[32] During this time three main Millerite groups formed, in addition to those who had simply given up their beliefs.

    The first major division of the Millerite groups who had not completely given up their belief in Christ’s Second Advent were those who accepted a shut-door theology. This belief was popularized by Joseph Turner and was based on that key Millerite passage: Matthew 25:1-13—the Parable of the Ten Virgins. The shut door mentioned in verses 11-12 was interpreted as the "close of probation". As Knight explains, “After the door was shut, there would be no additional salvation. The wise virgins (true believers) would be in the kingdom, while the foolish virgins and all others would be on the outside.”[33] The belief became a major issue upon the publication in January 1845, of an article by Apollos Hale and Turner in The Advent Mirror. This article tied the shut-door concept to October 22, 1844, teaching that the work of general salvation was finished at that date—Christ came spiritually as the Bridegroom, the wise virgins had entered into the wedding feast, and the door was then shut on all others.[34] This first group is commonly known as either the “shut-door” or “spiritualizer” group.

    However, the widespread acceptance of the “shut-door” belief lost ground as doubts were raised about the significance of the October 22, 1844 date—if nothing happened on that date, then there could be no shut door. The opposition to these “shut-door” beliefs was led by Joshua Vaughan Himes and make up the second post-'Great Disappointment' group. This faction soon gained the upper hand, even converting Miller to their point of view. On March 20, 1845, the Morning Watch published a call by Himes for a conference. The Albany Conference was to have three purposes:
    1.“to strengthen one another in the faith of the Advent at the door,”
    2.“to consult on the best mode of unitedly carrying forth our work, in comforting and preparing the Advent congregations among us for the speedy coming of the Lord,” and
    3.“to unite our efforts, for the conversion and salvation of sinners.”[35]

    Notably, the stated purpose of the conference was not to debate controversial doctrines. In fact the invitation was extended only to those Adventists who “still adhere to the original faith.” The Shut-door Adventists and others who had developed new doctrines were therefore explicitly excluded. The biggest draw card was to be the presence of Miller. In fact Himes wrote to Miller on March 27, 1845, saying, “all depends upon your being there.”[36]

    The Albany Conference began on April 29, 1845 and was to be, “one of the most significant Adventist meetings in the history of post-October 1844 Adventism.” The delegates to the Albany Conference– including prominent Millerite leaders such as Miller, Himes. Elon Galusha, Josiah Litch, and Sylvester Bliss; accomplished three main tasks:
    1.The production of a ten-point statement of belief.
    2.The development of a plan for evangelism that involved further organization, including the establishment of Sunday Schools and Bible classes; and the ordination of selected believers as ministers.
    3.The passing of a series of resolutions that rejected a number of beliefs and practices seen as extreme; including mixed foot-washing, compulsory salutation kissing, shaving one’s head, and acting childlike.

    The Albany Conference group of Millerites formed the Evangelical Adventists out of which rose the Advent Christian Church. The Albany Conference Statement with its narrowing of beliefs was unacceptable to many. Millerism had been founded on Miller’s open, non-restrictive approach to Bible study--“It was the freedom to discover new truths that had drawn so many Christians and Freewill Baptists to the movement. The new restrictive definitions charted a course that was unacceptable to many who had joined the movement.”[37]

    The third major post-disappointment Millerite group also claimed—like the Hale and Turner led group—that the October 22 date was correct. Rather than Christ returning invisibly however, they came to view the event that took place on October 22, 1844 as having been quite different. The theology of this third group appears to have had its beginnings as early as October 23, 1844—the day after the Great Disappointment. On that day, during a prayer session with a group of Advent believers, Hiram Edson became convicted that “light would be given” and their “disappointment explained.” Some years later, Edson reported on his experiences following that meeting: "While passing through a large field I was stopped about midway of the field. Heaven seemed open to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, that He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that He had a work to perform in the Most Holy before coming to this earth in His Second Coming. That he came to the marriage at that time; in other words, to the Ancient of days to receive a kingdom, dominion, and glory; and we must wait for his return from the wedding."[38]

    Edson’s experience led him into an extended study on the topic with O. R. L. Crosier and F. B. Hahn. They came to the conclusion that “the sanctuary to be cleansed in Daniel 8:14 was not the earth or the church, but the sanctuary in heaven.”[39] Therefore, the October 22 date marked not the Second Coming of Christ, but rather a heavenly event. This is the basis for the later Seventh-day Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgement. An article written by O. R. L. Crosier titled "To All Who Are waiting for Redemption, the Following is Addressed" summarising their insights, was published in the March 1845 edition of the Day-Dawn.[40] A more comprehensive article - also by O. R. L. Crosier and titled "The Law of Moses" was published in the Day-Star of February 7, 1846.[41] It is out of this third Millerite group that the Seventh-day Adventist Church arose.

    Millerite Doctrine

    The Millerites originally had adherents across denominational lines, especially from Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist and Campbellite churches, forming distinct denominations only after the Great Disappointment. They were united by a belief in the imminent return of Jesus Christ—the Second Advent. After the Great Disappointment of October 22, 1844, discussion of beliefs began to fragment the once united Millerites. Dunton points out that there were four main divisive doctrines being discussed by Millerites around the time of the Albany Conference:
    1.Biblical prophecies relating to the Jews. The majority of Millerites believed that these prophecies would find a spiritual rather than a literal fulfilment; however the Age to Come Adventists led by Joseph Marsh believed in a literal, physical Jewish return to Palestine prior to the Christ’s return.
    2.Conditional immortality was not discussed at the Albany Conference, but was a source of controversy soon after.
    3.The doctrine of the Sabbath was one of the schismatic issues debated at the Albany Conferences. The seventh-day Sabbath was rejected by delegates at the Albany Conference, who passed a resolution to have "no fellowship with Jewish fables and commandments of man, that turn from the truth."[42] Sabbatarianism remained a minority position among the Millerites, but the doctrine received a significant boost when Thomas Preble published a tract on the topic. The tract, titled, A Tract, Showing that the Seventh Day Should Be Observed as the Sabbath, Instead of the First Day; "According to the Commandment", was widely read by Miller’s followers.
    4.Following the disappointment of October 22, there was considerable discussion regarding the continuing possibility of the conversion of sinners. The doctrine that excluded this possibility became known as the shut-door. Miller himself believed this for a short time, though he later changed and repudiated it.[43]

    Bible Student movement (Jehovah's Witnesses since 1931) had connections at the very beginning (in the early 2nd half of 19th century) with the Millerite movement. Russell later stated that he thanks to Adventists, and other religious groups, for some of their views. As of this, Bible Student Movement was influencd by Adventists roots, but not emerged from Millerism movement.[44]

    Bahá'ís also credit Miller's analysis of the time of Christ's return.[45] See also Day-year principle for a more complete review of how William Miller's analysis of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8 matches the Baha'i understanding. Baha'is believe that, although William Miller's understanding of the location and method of Christ's return was not accurate, his calculation of the timing was entirely correct.

    See also
    Great Disappointment
    Adventist
    Millennialism
    Christian eschatology
    Second Coming
    Seventh-day Adventist Church
    Christian revival
    Christianity in the 19th century
    List of religions and religious denominations#Adventist and related churches
    List of Christian denominations#Millerites and comparable groups
    Other movements in Category:Adventism
    Millerites
    William Miller (preacher)
    Second Great Awakening
    Joshua Vaughan Himes
    Unfulfilled religious prophecies

    Notes

    1.^ a b Bliss 1853, p. 79
    2.^ Miller 1845, p. 15
    3.^ Miller 1845, p. 18
    4.^ Miller 1845, p. 17
    5.^ Miller 1845, p. 19
    6.^ Richard L. Rogers, "Millennialism and American Culture: The Adventist Movement," Comparative Social Research 13, 1991: 110.
    7.^ LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers Volume IV, Washington, DC: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1954, 621.
    8.^ Louis Billington, "The Millerite Adventists in Great Britain, 1840-1850," Journal of American Studies 1:2 1967, 193.
    9.^ Sylvester Bliss, Memoirs of William Miller, Boston: Joshua V. Himes, 1853, 141-144.
    10.^ Everett N. Dick, William Miller and the Advent Crisis Berrien Springs: Andrews University Press, 1994, 76.
    11.^ Everett N. Dick, William Miller and the Advent Crisis, Berrien Springs: Andrews University Press, 1994, 76.
    12.^ Ruth Alden Doan, The Miller Heresy, Millennialism, and American Culture, Philadelphia, PA: Temple University Press, 1987.
    13.^ Le Roy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers Volume IV, Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1954, 624-625, 628.
    14.^ Louis Billington, "The Millerite Adventists in Great Britain, 1840-1850," Journal of American Studies 1:2 1967, 195.
    15.^ Le Roy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers Volume IV, Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1954, 623.
    16.^ Le Roy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers Volume IV, Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1954, 712.
    17.^ Hugh Dunton, “The Millerite Adventists and Other Millenarian Groups in Great Britain, 1830-1860”, PhD, University of London, 1984, 114.
    18.^ Josiah Litch, "The Midnight Cry at the Sandwich Islands," Signs of the Times, October 4, 1843, 109.
    19.^ Quoted in Everett N. Dick, William Miller and the Advent Crisis Berrien Springs: [Andrews University] Press, 1994, 96-97.
    20.^ William Miller, "Letter From Mr Miller--His Position," The Advent Herald and Signs of the Times Reporter, April 10, 1844, 77.
    21.^ George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 162.
    22.^ William Miller, "Mr Miller at Washington," Advent Herald, March 6, 1844, 39.
    23.^ This was not a new thought, and had been discussed by Millerite writers as early as June 21, 1843. "Chronology," Signs of the Times, June 21, 1843, 123.
    24.^ George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 168.
    25.^ Snow had previously presented this idea, it was published on February 22, 1844 in the Midnight Cry, and republished in the Advent Herald on April 3, 1844. Both times however, a cautionary note was appended by the magazines’ editors, indicating that they disagreed with Snow’s conclusions. Samuel S. Snow, The Midnight Cry, February 22, 1844., Samuel S. Snow, "Prophetic Time," The Advent Herald and Signs of the Times Reporter, April 3, 1844.
    26.^ Samuel S. Snow, The Advent Herald, August 21, 1844, 20. See also Samuel S. Snow, True Midnight Cry, August 22, 1844, 4.
    27.^ George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 191, 199.
    28.^ [1], Front page of the Milwaukie Commercial Herald, Oct. 23, 1844
    29.^ George R. Knight, A Brief History of Seventh-day Adventists, Hagerstown: Review and Herald, 1999, 26.
    30.^ Whitney R. Cross, The Burned-over District: A Social and Intellectual History of Enthusiastic Religion in Western New York (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1950) 310.
    31.^ Sylvester Bliss, Memoirs of William Miller, Boston: Joshua V. Himes, 1853, 299-300.
    32.^ George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 232.
    33.^ George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 236-237.
    34.^ Apollos Hale and Joseph Turner, "Has Not the Saviour Come as the Bridegroom," The Advent Mirror, January 1845, 1-4.
    35.^ Joshua V. Himes, Morning Watch, March 20, 1845, 96.
    36.^ Quoted in George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 268.
    37.^ Merlin D. Burt, “The Historical Background, Interconnected Development, and Integration of the Doctrines of the Heavenly Sanctuary, the Sabbath, and Ellen G. White's Role in Sabbatarian Adventism from 1844-1849”, PhD, Andrews University, 2002, 165.
    38.^ Hiram Edson, "Experience in the Advent Movement (Incomplete), p. 9. This undated document was apparently not written until many years after this event and was probably influenced by the ideas of later authors. See Fernand Fisel, "Edson's Cornfield 'Vision:' Frisson or Figment?," Adventist Currents, July 1983, 3; for a detailed discussion of the issues. See also Ross E. Winkle, "Disappearing Act: Hiram Edson’s Cornfield Experience," Spectrum 33, no. 1 (2005):46-51 for a more recent perspective.
    39.^ George R. Knight, Millennial Fever and the End of the World, Boise, ID: Pacific Press, 1993, 305-306.
    40.^ A copy of this lost publication was discovered by Merlin D. Burt in 1995 and republished in 2006: Merlin D. Burt, "The Day-Dawn of Canandaigua, New York: Reprint of a Significant Millerite Adventist Journal"PDF . Andrews University Seminary Studies 44, no. 2 (2006): 317–330
    41.^ O. R. L. Crosier, "The Law of Moses" Day-Star (February 7, 1846): 1-8
    42.^ "Proceedings of the Mutual Conference of Adventists," (Albany: Joshua Himes, 1845.
    43.^ Hugh Dunton, “The Millerite Adventists and Other Millenarian Groups in Great Britain, 1830-1860”, PhD, University of London, 1984, 97-98.
    44.^ Zion's Watch Tower, June 1, 1916 p. 170
    45.^ Sears (1961). Thief in the Night. — anonymous critical review of same book at bahai-library.com

    Books
    Bliss, Sylvester (1853). Memoirs of William Miller. Boston: Joshua V. Himes.
    Miller, William (1845). Wm. Miller's Apology and Defence. Boston: Joshua V. Himes.
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    devakas

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:07 am

    Threecaster wrote:

    I do agree that there are many who have less-than-everyone's interest behind their intent.

    I must also say I'm with you on "Let's wait and see", I keep having the feeling that 99% of this whole business is hype.
    But that leaves the 1% where something genuinely interesting is going to happen.

    And thank you again for ferreting out these not so positive influences.


    So Floyd, in this age of Ascended Charlatans, whom (in a modest public eye) do you think is giving it to us straight and can be reasonably trusted?

    nobody. charlatans? dont fall under Kali

    Question


    p.s.: Devakas: I agree completely with your non-duality statement. That is good. Then lets stick with this! It sounds self-evident statement, but the same as self evident pure none-dualistic knowledge. It seems that whenever someone offers you only two choices, there is almost always a third they say nothing about...(and it's often the better choice!) So messages that polarise may have something else to say entirely! cyclops


    We are constantly supplied to be polarised and fall under Kali again and again, but I basically use the intuition, feelings to read between the words and miss the wordssss spell-outs. Wink

    liverpoolians

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    Floyd

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Floyd on Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:33 am

    Carol wrote:

    Perhaps Floyd's role is to remind folks to be sure to separate the wheat from the shaft and not waste time getting suckered in my illegitimate gurus of one sort or another. Only in most instances he's preaching to the choir. Been there, done that, got it figured out.

    Ascension is not about ego.

    Im not sure you are getting it. If anything the information I am providing is for non members of this forum who may be approaching the subject for the first time. In fact nearly all of my posts are aimed at those so I aint preachin to no choir but there is certainly lots of other preaching for various religions etc in this forum. So please indulge me! Is it important to shed a little more light on these cranks? Yes it is.

    Ascension is a new religion just like any other including older more established ones. It has theology cosmology, and a selection of priests and priestesses who have brought through the information from dubious disembodied sources that are completely unreliable and quite possibly not authentic.

    It has a science division too that is run by unqualified pseudo scientists who generally don't know what they are talking about and often are prone to a bit of channeling themselves.

    The core of this religion are built on foundations of sand. Its central philosophy that a select and elite group of spiritually developed souls who spend moments each day basking in their spiritual ego and waiting to float up like a little cork to a godly dimension leaving the unqualified behind. It is about ego Carol and plenty of other things too that are what one could say have few recognisable spiritual qualities.

    There is so much wrong with the Ascension religion its difficult to know where to start. I think its is unhelpful, separatist and more of a hindrance than help to the evolution of this planet and the destiny of the beings that populate it. I would go even further to say that the entities who have given the messages that provide the basis for it are malignant and it is by design a false religion meant to throw things off balance.

    That's why I have no time for it or the money grabbing frauds who pimp its ideas on behalf of these dubious beings.

    It's nothing to do with polarisation either. It is to do with recognising that humans are easily persuaded and all that glitters is not gold, even the glittering promise of Ascension. We are all in this together and those who are pulling themselves away my be alarmed when they reach their final destination.

    Most religions are conditioned and work within parameters both new and old. By disintegrating religion and rising above confined ideas, living in the now and recognising the challenges the planet and her creatures face is the only legitimate way to move forward for planetary evolution.

    Im my view the Ascension religion stands four square against that splendid opportunity and ultimately that's why I think it is useless for the spiritual quester. Nay detrimental.


    @threecaster, the best thing to trust is no religion, channeler, or alien but your own intuition. The inner whispering voice of wisdom. Observing nature is the best teacher for me personally, of all varieties. Human, plant, animal, mineral, aquatic. All the secrets to our destiny and being are locked in there and there is no need to pay for anything or to subscribe to any particular organised belief system or pseudo science.

    Indeed let us wait and see if the 'Ascendors' depart or otherwise.

    @Devakas Its Liverpudlians by the way but you are right anyway.
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  magamud on Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:48 am

    No doubt this is a juggernaut. We exist esoterically but our leaders have exploited this to the point where we leave our bodies and live in a false light. This prompts the Atheists to denounce this and proclaim, "stick to humanities realities". One cannot exist without the other and each have their own truth.

    A main problem is fighting evil. The Atheist believes it can be detained through human realms when in actuality it is of spiritual discernment. In truth the Atheist view buys us some time, but in the end it just gives better disguises for the Devil...

    Ascension is just understanding the World you live in, nothing more...
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:57 am

    I have tried to be both friend and foe of several points of view -- and I have engaged in massive amounts of speculation and fantasy -- as you well know -- but I don't represent any of it as being 'The Truth'. I am very interested in 'The Church' and 'The Truth' -- yet I no longer attend church -- and I am often quite critical of 'The Truth' and 'The Church'. I am just the opposite of a highly-polished super-salesman for Jesus. I think we need to keep considering everything, from all angles, all the time -- and not be afraid to step on toes -- even our own...
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Threecaster on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:00 am

    Alas yes, at the end of the day, it is ultimately up to us as we see it from inside of our skulls.

    Spirituality is a very personal buisness, yet (and I suppose this is the Darkness of the Kali Yuga in action) we have come to posses a quivering uncertainty about our personal choices.

    Well, Kali and those who go "Oh Yes! Keep thinking you are small and ignorant, and while you are at it, your taxes are due."

    It does seem that many current observations of organised religions are more carrot-and-stick, or are largely spoon feeding ceremonies.

    I've been lucky that due to my hardwiring, the fact that everyone else is doing it makes me suspicious of the activity; so I've grown up with a disposition of seeking that which is consistent across all levels of humanity. This consistency is what I then pick up and press against the background to see if it works in harmony with my own ways of getting along.

    Sorry if that logic sounds circular; it's really a spiral! Hypnotize



    This is where I am reminded of the book Illuminatus by Robert Anton Wilson, in the scene where in a giant submarine, in it's living room above the fireplace is a large framed picture. This shows Moses on the mountain and there is a giant hand coming out of the clouds and is flipping a bird at him. The brass plaque on the frame says "Think for yourself!"

    If that's a little harsh for you, then try this one on:

    I think it was James Thoreau who said (and I'm sure I'm mis-quoting)

    "Take that which is lesser than yourself and make it your own."

    Personally, there are only a few things in this sphere that are greater than I; and I'm trying to say that sans Ego, if you get my drift. As a creature of God, or Shiva, or the Great Spirit, I am automatically imbuded with a connection that enables me to do pretty much anything I can imagine.

    I think I just have to get out of my own way, and make up my mind at the same time! Razz

    It seems I just don't really want that much I think....

    now I'm starting to ramble.....and I've had too much coffee...

    Cup o Cup o Cup o
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    magamud

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  magamud on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:02 am

    We are all and the one. Spirit is an organized expression of sovereignty. These are not paradoxes... Its if our mind seeks centralization, but is also in a state of rebellion.
    Quite the quandary....

    I would compare your birth to your family the same as your consciousness birth to a family....
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:15 am

    Consider this lecture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM9yezr4rBM&feature=player_embedded What do you think?? Could it be true?? Could the basic message of the 1928 'Book of Common Prayer' (mostly consisting of a collection of the 'best' scriptures) be true -- regardless of the source -- and regardless of the historicity of the major players??? Human experience is often a tangled-mess. Blood-Feuds Are So Overrated. Common-Sense would be nice. Required Classes in Ethics, Logic, and Critical-Thinking (K-12) would be a start. I still think that an academic focus on the word 'Responsibility' will yield huge dividends. BTW -- here is a walk down conspiracy-theory memory-lane -- with John Todd. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doBQ4atIsh0&feature=related This goes back to the 70's -- but I have no idea how accurate this man was. I just take it all in -- and go nuttier and nuttier and nuttier!!! The horror. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRkcWlhmyGI&feature=related What if Archangel Michael was/is an Archangelic Queen of Heaven?? What if Archangel Michael was/is the Ancient Egyptian Deity 'Thoth'?? What if Archangel Michael was/is the Ancient Egyptian Deity 'Isis'? What if Archangel Michael was/is Jesus?? What if the 'Teachings of Jesus' are the 'Teachings of Isis'?? What if Archangel Michael was/is an Archangelic Queen of Heaven was/is One of Several 'Marys' was/is Jesus Christ?? What if most Historical Deities are Mythical Representations of Actual Deities?? Remember, in one of the 'Stargate SG-1' episodes, where Adria speaks of 'bringing light to this world (or solar system) -- and that there could be no room for doubt'??? Think about it. I should stop. They have ways to make me stop. Many ways. Yesterday, one of those streaming white-lights passed between me and the monitor, when I typed most of this post. The horror.

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    magamud

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  magamud on Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:38 am

    Required Classes in Ethics, Logic, and Critical-Thinking (K-12) would be a start
    I don't think this to be true Ortho. Its more of a birth or a celebration in knowing. That is, its in a state of joy. This is the start.

    What if Archangel Michael was/is an Archangelic Queen of Heaven??
    I suspect you are speaking of the Fallen ones or the Archons, ones who know the mind of God and use his powers to Rebel.
    How can one fight such Evil?
    Its in knowing we are gods children in mortality and morality terms. This manifests as common sense.
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:13 am

    magamud wrote:
    Required Classes in Ethics, Logic, and Critical-Thinking (K-12) would be a start
    I don't think this to be true Ortho. Its more of a birth or a celebration in knowing. That is, its in a state of joy. This is the start.

    What if Archangel Michael was/is an Archangelic Queen of Heaven??
    I suspect you are speaking of the Fallen ones or the Archons, ones who know the mind of God and use his powers to Rebel.
    How can one fight such Evil?
    Its in knowing we are gods children in mortality and morality terms. This manifests as common sense.
    Why can't Ethics, Logic, and Critical-Thinking involve Joyful Experiences such as the Eureka Phenomenon? Are Archangels necessarily Fallen. If Archangel Michael really exists -- are they really fallen? Does 'fallen' necessarily mean 'evil'? What if we really are dealing with a Human v Pre-Human Civil Star War in Heaven among Soul-Relatives? Might a Pre-Human God be viewed by Humans as being 'Satan'? Might a Human God be viewed by Pre-Humans as being 'Satan'? Might the Bible contain both Human and Pre-Human perspectives?
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    magamud

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  magamud on Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:33 am

    Why can't Ethics, Logic, and Critical-Thinking involve Joyful Experiences such as the Eureka Phenomenon?
    It can Ortho, I was just trying to help with awareness. And thats not egoism...

    Are Archangels necessarily Fallen.
    No of course not. Its in recognizing the ones that are.

    If Archangel Michael really exists -- are they really fallen?
    I don't know who you are talking about. But if it is the lore of Lucifer then yes. Paradise lost?

    Does 'fallen' necessarily mean 'evil'?
    One can repent at anytime and acknowledge gods will. So in this context, no, but to continue in action, this would be considered evil...

    What if we really are dealing with a Human v Pre-Human Civil Star War in Heaven among Soul-Relatives?
    The Drama is quite huge Ortho as it appears this narrative is collapsing everything like a black hole. The important thing is to be at the Crux of all things.

    Might a Pre-Human God be viewed by Humans as being 'Satan'?
    Ones awareness of Satan is relative to their awareness of the World. An Atheist believes Banksters are him. Satan has legions that follow him...

    Might the Bible contain both Human and Pre-Human perspectives?
    I suspect there are many levels. The crux of this one is the nature of the universe, the Harvest were in and who our maker is and what to do about it...
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    Carol
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Carol on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:29 pm

    We don't need any more laws. We need to enforce the ones we have starting from the top. And this is a global problem. Unfortunately, corruption has become the norm and those who get in the way are sadly eliminated in one way or another..


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    What is life?
    It is the flash of a firefly in the night, the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.

    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:58 pm

    Thank-you for the answers, Magamud. Carol, I've recently been thinking in terms of Responsibility-Based -- International, Interplanetary, and Intergalactic -- Moral, Civil, Religious, and Governmental Law -- in Canon-Law Format. I'm sorry if I am overly repetitious and grandiose -- but I am attempting to avoid confusion, absurdity, enslavement, and extermination. Think Galactically -- Act Globally. Solar System Law and Governance which disregards the Ancient and Traditional Universal Law and Government of God -- is probably doomed to failure. How do we properly harmonize Humanity with Divinity??
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    Floyd

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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  Floyd on Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:58 pm

    Threecaster wrote:
    Spirituality is a very personal buisness, yet (and I suppose this is the Darkness of the Kali Yuga in action) we have come to posses a quivering uncertainty about our personal choices.


    Getting back on track...

    yes spirituality or any belief is an individual business. In that sense Ascensionism is no different from any other religion whether new or old.

    With new religious movements such as ascensionism, we have the benefit of tracing their origins in a more succinct way more than older religions where the waters are muddied somewhat. Conpersons are quite easily identified.

    We can broaden this out to wider question, that is the problem of religion in general.

    You see defenders of the faith of any kind of religion believe that they are right. This new religion of Ascensionism is a peculiar beast inasmuch it convenes together a peculiar mixture of gods from aliens to Ascended Masters and often the twain do not meet but yet the religion lives on. That is theologically absurd within the context of it being one unified religion which on outer appearances it is but on closer examination it is not.

    Likewise Hinduism is a conglomerate of widely varying religious beliefs as is Islam, Buddhism and Christianity etc.


    Religion like politics has been the bedrock of conflict and bloodshed for centuries so perhaps it is something we can begin to ignore whether it be a new religion or an old one.

    In 100 years from now perhaps Ascensionism will be regarded as a bit of a curiosity that appealed to a generation appalled by the state of the planet when they existed and were desperately hoping for a better world, perhaps an elite world where only special people existed where they could escape to?

    The quest for immortality and perfection. One of the dilemmas of the human condition which often finds its expression in religion.

    Its always easy to blame others for what is wrong in the world when one doesn't do anything about it.

    But maybe we can still be spiritual,(for want of a better term) without religion of any kind.

    But maybe we can still be spiritual,(for want of a better term) without religion of any kind.

    It depends what we mean by spititual doesnt it. The development of ones own egoic salvation or delving deeper into an understanding of what planet we seem to be living on and how we can contribute positively to its evolution.

    In that sense threecaster spirituality is a personal thing in as much one can have a choice to think about themselves or the bigger picture of which they are a part.
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    Re: Ascension: Problems of a new religious movement

    Post  devakas on Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:39 pm

    orthodoxymoron wrote:Thank-you for the answers, Magamud. Carol, I've recently been thinking in terms of Responsibility-Based -- International, Interplanetary, and Intergalactic -- Moral, Civil, Religious, and Governmental Law -- in Canon-Law Format. I'm sorry if I am overly repetitious and grandiose -- but I am attempting to avoid confusion, absurdity, enslavement, and extermination. Think Galactically -- Act Globally. Solar System Law and Governance which disregards the Ancient and Traditional Universal Law and Government of God -- is probably doomed to failure. How do we properly harmonize Humanity with Divinity??

    First of all they must know what is the welfare of the human being. Unfortunately, with advancement of so-called material education, the human society is missing the aim of life. The aim of life is declared openly in the Vedānta philosophy, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the aim of human life. In the Bhāgavata it is said, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. The life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. That is the aim of human life. The whole Vedic civilization is based on this principle. But on account of deviating from the original Vedic civilization, they have dedicated the human form of life in so many unnecessary scientific discoveries, that discovery, which will not give him any relief to the human society. The real tribulation of life is birth, death and disease and old age. So the so-called advancement of material civilization has not solved the real problem of life, and the aim of human life is to solve the real problem of human life. The real problem of life, that we are eternal, as eternal as God, but we are subjected to birth and death. So with the poor fund of knowledge in the Kali-yuga, people being very bad, or slow for self-realization, and they create their own way of life, mandāḥ sumanda-matayo [SB 1.1.10], and they are unfortunate and, and disturbed. Disturbance is always there, but they are not mindful about the real disturbances of life. Now, on the whole in this age, practically the human being has become like animal. The animal, although always in disturbed condition, cannot understand the aim of life, what is his position. So this type of civilization is very, very dangerous to the human society, that they have no aim of life.
    Hayagrīva: So he concludes we must obey God rather than men, in terms of laws.
    Prabhupāda: Yes. We can obey such man who obeys the laws of God. Otherwise they…, it is useless to obey an imperfect person. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. To obey the imperfect person means just like a blind man following other blind man. So what benefit he will get? If one blind man is begging help from others, “Please help me in crossing the road,” if another blind man comes and he says, “Yes, come on with me,” so what will be the result? Both will be crushed by accident. So any, any person who does not follow the instruction of the Supreme Controller, he is a blind person. He cannot lead. As we are concerned, we therefore don’t accept the so- called scientist’s or philosopher’s belief. They say, “We believe,” “Perhaps it may be like this.” These are all doubtful declaration. There is no truth in it. If there is any truth, that is also doubtful. Why should we risk our life by following such blind man who is thinking, who is believing, but he has no clear knowledge? Therefore we have decided to take lesson from the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa, who knows everything perfectly well. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni. He knows past, present and future, and what is our benefit, welfare, everything. So we should follow Kṛṣṇa instead of so-called blind philosophers.
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