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    Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System


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    Join date : 2010-09-28

    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:06 am

    What if the United States of the Solar System consisted of all of the existing governmental systems (including the United Nations and the Secret Government) -- meeting where they presently meet -- and being linked via the InterPlaNet?? The U.S.S.S. Representatives might be required to have earned PhD's from the University of Solar System Studies and Governance. They might do double-duty as government officials in their home territories (with whatever governmental system exists there) -- then they might serve as U.S.S.S. representatives (in a manner which I have suggested within this thread). I'm still aiming for that 10,000 representative number -- to avoid exclusivity and corruption. Plus, the solar system is quite large and complex -- especially if it is as developed and populated as I think it might be. However, what if a somewhat theocratic U.S.S.S. Supreme Court (with perhaps 200 Supreme Court Justices) met in a setting such as St. Ouen in France -- complete with all of the pomp and circumstance I've previously hinted at?? Would such an assembly serve as an Authority of Last Resort -- as sort of a Solar System Governmental Rock -- if you know what I mean??? I'm really not trying to be arbitrary or difficult. On the other hand -- don't Politics and Religion require some elements of arbitrariness??? Go ahead and get mad -- and then think long and hard about it. Once again, this is all just a mental and spiritual exercise.

    On the one hand -- the suggestion (that the Solar System is a Big Business -- Appearances are Everything -- the Lies are Different at Every Level -- and the Bottom-Line is the Bottom-Line) is highly upsetting (to me) -- yet if YOU were setting-up a solar system for an experimental race of beings -- in a highly hostile universe -- how would YOU do it?? Things seem to have been bad for a very long time -- but what if they HAVE to be bad?? What if Purgatory is as good as it gets?? What if we are damn lucky that things are as good as they have been historically -- and as good as they are presently?? What if we have been ruled by "Aliens" who don't like us (historically). What if we are ruled by "Aliens" who don't like us (presently)?? What if these "Aliens" are "God"?? What if we had a Final Jihad to secure this solar system for humanity -- only to discover (much to our horror) that we are incapable of ruling ourselves??!! What if the major personalities (human and otherwise) throughout history (including the holy-ones) have a good-side and a bad-side? What a revolting development THAT would be!!
    Carol wrote: Hi Oxy, After listening to a number of folks who crossed over and came back I've come to the conclusion to be non-judgmental. That we are here for the life experience and life is meant to be enjoyed irrespective of all the hoopla and negativity others put out there. My focus as usual is on the sun and earth changes as compared to the pitiful interactions between the different fractions, where I feel utterly helpless to do anything other then to shake my head and refocus on something I do have control over - like the garden I'm neglecting, or the chickens who sneak off to have clutches of baby chicks where we now have a rooster farm as compared to just a few egg laying hens. Everywhere I go, I'm tripping over baby chicks. I'm just enjoying each day and what it brings. I figure this is the best I can do for human kind to help balance out all the negative stuff. Of course I have high hopes of the dinar revaluing soon so we can do more fun stuff like get an aquaponics green house set up and travel. Becoming more and more self-sufficient is what is fun for me. I just saw this new stove The Kimberly Wood Stove that looks pretty cool and would work great for our house in Oregon where it is fricking cold 8 months out of the year. I was thinking something like this would also be good for a greenhouse there too. I don't mind your tangential rants. I figure most of us are just trying to sort stuff out on a regular basis and each of us has our own wealth of knowledge. It'd be fun someday to get all together and sit around a campfire enjoying the stout. I'd like that as most here feel like old friends. Hadriel Lawless Toast Flowers
    I'm simply trying to imagine how Heaven might be structured within this solar system. It certainly isn't Heaven now -- is it?? Are we pleased with This Present Purgatory?? But then what the Hell do I know?? Or who in Hell do I know??? If I've made everyone angry -- and made everyone hate me -- at least this might constitute preliminary common ground. Baby Steps. Even if we somehow set everything up in absolute perfection -- it wouldn't be long before jealously, fighting, power-struggling, etc, etc, etc would screw-up paradise. I really think this is what happened in the Garden of Eden -- and that very little has changed since then. I suspect that we have hidden leaders who could easily pass a 'V' Empathy Test -- in part because running the show in this neck of the woods requires very thick skin. Nothing is ever right. Nothing is ever good enough. Someone gets left out in the cold, etc, etc, etc. I will continue to post idealistic conceptualizations -- knowing full-well that it would be next to impossible to implement my idealistic plans. I'm very, very close to focusing on astronomy and sacred classical music. I sort of started out this way in my youth -- but I somehow got led astray by a cold, cruel, screwed-up world. I sometimes get the urge to join the Masons -- and become a corrupt banker and weapons salesman -- so I can buy a Porsche 911 Turbo and a Shallow Underground Civilian Base -- and thumb my nose at the commoners when the excrement contacts the refrigeration system. Just kidding -- or am I???? Perhaps I should stop. Consider the following. I might be a Completely Ignorant Fool -- yet I think that I point you in valid and important directions. Please do not neglect the material and areas I have attempted to illuminate and meddle-with.

    Is God a Girl? Does the following Anime Music Video reveal part of the Divinity Within Humanity? I'm not trying to be a smart alec...and I'm not asking a rhetorical question. Do you consider this video to be inspiring or offensive? On YouTube...someone commented that God was not a girl...because a girl wouldn't have $crewed things up this badly!!! Another person said that having a girl God would be better than having a mean old man for a God!!! Whatever the case may be...I think that we need to gradually perfect the Human Race...and perfect the Solar System...and not through Draconian Eugenics and Extermination...but rather through following Responsibility wherever it leads.

    Jesus said 'you must be like little children to enter the Kingdom'...and elsewhere the Bible says 'a little child shall lead them'. I have a problem with some of the risque drawings in the video...but overall...the artistic beauty, uplifting music, innocence, and spiritual allusions...are representative of a small portion of the Divinity Within Humanity. Focusing on the ideal in art, music, literature, science, nature, spirituality, governance, etc...will lead us to higher ground...on the road to utopia.

    Remembering me, discover and see,
    All over the world, she’s known as a girl,
    To those who are free, their minds shall be key,
    Forgotten as the past, cause history will last.

    God is a girl, wherever you are,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, whatever you say,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, however you live,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, shes only a girl,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?

    She wants to shine, forever in time,
    She is so driven, shes always mine,
    Clearly and free, she wants you to be,
    A part of the future, a girl like me,
    There is a sky, illuminating us,
    Someone is out there, that we truly trust,
    There is a rainbow, for you and me,
    A beautiful sunrise, eternally.

    God is a girl, wherever you are,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, whatever you say,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, however you live,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, shes only a girl,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?

    She wants to shine, forever in time,
    She is so driven, shes always mine,
    Clearly and free, she wants you to be,
    A part of the future, a girl like me,
    There is a sky, illuminating us,
    Someone is out there, that we truly trust,
    There is a rainbow, for you and me,
    A beautiful sunrise, eternally.

    God is a girl, wherever you are,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, whatever you say,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, however you live,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?
    God is a girl, shes only a girl,
    Do you believe it, can you receive it?

    Thank-you zaina. The goal is a higher level of psychological, ethical, and spiritual development...resulting in a better world. But part of the process involves facing unpleasant realities. Hopefully this can be accomplished in a somewhat balanced fashion...but there is really no easy or right way to do this. There are pros and cons to just about everything.

    Could we consider most of the human beings depicted in religious art...including Ancient Deities, Jesus, Mary, the Saints, et simply be Idealized Human Beings...painted or sculpted by Idealized Human Beings? In other words...the focus would be on idealizing or perfecting the Human Race...rather than following or reverencing any particular deities. We would simply Reverence the Divinity Within Humanity. This is an attempt at unifying humanity...while maintaining responsible freedom. One could appreciate the painted and sculpted works in the Vatican and Washington D.C...for example...without ascribing any particular veneration to Pagan or Christian Deities.

    Namaste Constitutional Responsible the context of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of the context of the United Nations...and applied to the Solar a related attempt at unifying humanity...while maintaining responsible freedom. The goal would be a Perfected Humanity existing in a Perfected Solar System with Infinite Diversity and Responsible Freedom. If we make our bed and sleep in it...reincarnating endlessly...shouldn't we go first-class?

    The 'Quest of the Historical Jesus' by Dr. Albert Schweitzer, written a century ago, is not exactly a devotional book. It is a hard reading review of several major critical studies of Jesus, and mostly negative. But in the last chapter there are some positive gems which emerge from the darkness. The devotional aspects of the study of Jesus should not be neglected! But the scholarly and critical studies should not be neglected either! This is an often painful process, but it makes us strong.

    "But the truth is, it is not Jesus as historically known, but Jesus as spiritually arisen within men, who is significant for our time and can help it. Not the historical Jesus, but the spirit which goes forth from Him and in the spirits of men strives for new influence and rule, is that which overcomes the world." --The Quest of the Historical Jesus pg. 401

    "Jesus as a concrete historical personality remains a stranger to our time, but His spirit, which lies hidden in His words, is known in simplicity, and its influence is direct. Every saying contains in its own way the whole Jesus. The very strangeness and unconditionedness in which He stands before us makes it easier for individuals to find their own personal standpoint in regard to Him."--The Quest of the Historical Jesus pg. 401

    "But in reality that which is eternal in the words of Jesus is due to the very fact that they are based on an eschatological world-view, and contain the expression of a mind for which the contemporary world with its historical and social circumstances no longer had any existence. They are appropriate, therefore, to any world, for in every world they raise the man who dares to meet their challenge, and does not turn and twist them into meaninglessness, above his world and his time, making him inwardly free, so that he is fitted to be, in his own world and in his own time, a simple channel of the power of Jesus."--The Quest of the Historical Jesus pg. 402

    "He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lake-side, He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same word: 'Follow thou me!' and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfil for our time. He commands. And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is."--The Quest of the Historical Jesus pg. 403

    Jesus taught mostly in nature. The most inspirational environment is nature! I believe that the Holy Spirit can best get through to us when we contemplate eternal things in nature. The best place to have church is not in church. The best church is no church!

    Having said that, I am torn. I love architecturally and acoustically inspiring churches. Especially while experiencing sacred music in these vast spaces. Singing the great hymns of the church with congregation, choir, organ and orchestra, as the sunlight streams through the stained glass windows is truly a mountain top experience! I believe that artistic expression and creativity are hugely important parts of life and Christianity. They lift us up!

    However, I am often troubled by the price and the pride. Is Jesus impressed? I sometimes imagine the stained glass Jesus with tears streaming down His face because of being ignored, despised and rejected by His professed followers! Would those in Darfur be impressed? Should we build more orphanages than churches? I once stood at the altar of a magnificent Gothic cathedral, reading the story of the rich young ruler from a large leather-bound Bible on a golden pedestal. For a moment, I thought the Word of God clashed with the House of God! Are churches sometimes places where there is a form of godliness without the power? Where people stand, sit, bend, nod, and are politely kind to God? Also, the message and music are often determined by those with the dough, not by those in the know!

    Obviously, when it's cold, dark and rainy, it's nearly impossible to have a religious service outside! I guess we need church buildings, but we don't need jeweled, gold plated shrines, bedeviled with hideous gargoyles! We need the grand and glorious, but with sound and simple construction, so as not to become slaves to buildings and bills! Think minimalist cathedral. Was that an oxymoron? Sometimes I'm an oxymoron! And don't forget the soup kitchen!

    Also, church is not for everyone. The church is not the very gate of Heaven! The Christian Church is not Salvation4Sale! At least it shouldn't be. Church may, or may not, be necessary for balanced psychology, ethics and spirituality. Sometimes church can even make things worse! On the other hand, those who have left the church have often jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire, and had their fingers burnt right up to their arm pits!

    Finally, remember what Jesus said to the disciples when they were admiring a church building...

    OK...I'm going to brainstorm in this post. Could at least some of the following be true?

    Amen Ra = God the Founder = Intelligent Designer? Purposefully physically extinct (but could exist on another dimension)? The Divinity Within Humanity? Created Reptilians as a slave race? ("Let us make man in our image"). Destroyed by the Reptilians...or by Lucifer? Destroyed during the War in Heaven?

    Lucifer = Eve, Hathor, Isis, Mary (brought us to Earth from the Pleiades/Aldebaran/Sirius IN the Moon aka Battlestar Galactica aka Ark of the Covenant)? Created the major religions...including being the major author of the Bible? Is the Human Goddess of This World? Is alive presently? Perfectly possessed? Posting on the internet? Was deceived by the Reptilians who offered technology, protection, and a new Earth (the Promised Land) = Ate the Apple? In charge of the Deep Underground Military Bases / Stargate Temples / Secret Space Program?

    War/Expulsion in Heaven has Garden of Eden (Pleiades?) and Exodus (Hyksosdus?) parallels?

    The major factions in the Solar System can be associated with 1. Amen Ra? 2. Hathor? 3. Horus? 4. Serpent? Think about it.

    Adam = Earth Humanity?

    Winged Serpent = Reptilians / UFO's (Conspired with Lucifer against Amen Ra?). Provided technology, protection, and tenant in possession status on Earth for exchange for work, worship, and ?...aka The Covenant? Nibiru? Reptilian God of This World? Did Horus/Jesus obtain a New Covenant?

    This is a very tangled hypothetical web which might be pure unmitigated poppycock...or which might be the biggest part of disclosure?

    I have a feeling that we will be meeting Hathor in the near future...and that she might be a lot like Anna in "V"...except with darker skin and an English accent...with exquisite musical abilities...and an astronomical IQ. Just a feeling...mind you. Now I need to take my medicine...before I go to my psychiatrist and exorcist appointments. Too hip. Gotta go.


    I'm presently toying with the idea that Lucifer and Satan are two separate and very different beings...that Lucifer is the Human God (or Goddess) of This World...and that Satan is the Reptilian God (or Goddess) of This World. Human Responsibility is extremely important...but so is the Hierarchy of Power on this planet...which may significantly involve Non-Humans or Extraterrestrial Humans. Leave no moonrock unturned.

    I'm presently thinking of Lucifer as a very intelligent, very refined, very beautiful, very conflicted, young (yet ancient) Human Goddess of This World...who may have brought us here in the Battlestar Moon...from Sirius, Aldebaran, and the escape an oppressive theocracy. Perhaps the Reptilians were already here...and a deal with the Devil was worked out (after a long and bloody battle?) for us to stay on Earth...which involved work and worship. Who knows? What I do know is that we are in huge trouble...the nature of which I am unsure. I see Lucifer as being caught between the Devil and a Human Race who is waking-up to what is really going on. I suspect that the pressure is almost unbearable. But I do think that the time has arrived (and is long overdue) to place ALL of the facts on the table...before the general public...and to openly clean up the mess we are best we can. Perhaps Lucifer tried to take advantage of the Reptilians...and the Reps tried to take advantage of Lucifer and the Human Race. There has to be a Key Board Room located on the Earth or the Moon...where Lucifer, Satan, and certain key persons/beings meet to discuss and debate the future of humanity. My guess is that most of these meetings would drive most of us insane. This is pure speculation based upon at least some evidence and reason.

    If you haven't already seen the David Icke / Arizona Wilder interview. Warning: There are some very upsetting and graphic portions of the interview. I found David's monologue at the beginning to be very informative. Try playing the theme from The Exorcist (softly) during this Icke monologue!! The planned-wars, human-sacrifices, satanic-rituals, and child-abuse are reprehensible, unconscionable, and unfathomable in the extreme, and to the nth degree. This @#$%^& BS needs to STOP IMMEDIATELY. We probably need the City-States and the United Nations...but NOT IN THEIR PRESENT CORRUPT FORM.

    Sometimes I think I have been (or am presently!) a reptilian!! Who knows?? When I speak of a Solar System Exorcism...I intend this toward all very hard-core malevolents of all races. I want the really, really bad guys and gals (of all races, including human) to leave...until they learn to play nice. I want the good guys and gals (of all races, including reptilian) to stay. But this isn't up to me.

    Isn't the 'All Seeing Eye' (both Egyptian and Masonic?) directly related to the Dog-Star Sirius? Isn't Sun-Worship really the worship of the ET's from Sirius (The Sun God)? Ever heard of 'Sun God Day'?

    My religious background is SDA...but I'm a real mongrel at this point (a rebel without a church!). I recommend two books by Ellen White...'Desire of Ages' and 'Great Controversy'...but not much else. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg and Dr. Desmond Ford are very interesting people (heretics!) to study in the SDA historical zoo. I don't go to church...but if I would probably be an Episcopal church. If I were in New York...I might attend St. Thomas, St. Barts, or St. John the Divine. Unfortunately...I presently have huge problems with the penetential and sacrificial aspects of the Eucharistic Liturgy (and the pagan symbology)...even though I love the robes, music, incense, ceremony, reverence, awe, glory, grandeur, and fellowship. The 1928 Book of Common Prayer is much better than the present one...but I don't like either one! The Psalms are printed in their entirety...but where the hell are the Teachings of Jesus? Who's church is it anyway? I'd rather stay home...and eat chocolates!! I also have problems with the Substitutionary Atonement. So did Bernard Shaw. He thought it was unethical. I think that the entire sacrificial system was and is a colossal irresponsible and bloody mess! Apologetics in this area tend to degenerate into exegetical monstrosities. I have a way with words...don't I?

    I just re-watched the first episode of 'V'...and the thought struck me...could Anna be Lucifer/Hathor/Mary (the Human Goddess of This World) and Freddie (the one who always seems to be with Anna) be Satan (the Reptilian God of This World)? Could Amen Ra really be the Human God in the Pleiades who Lucifer rebelled against? I really don't know. I'm just trying to feel my way through this God and Goddess business...even though I know that I am venturing where Angels fear to tread.

    Thank-you MyShadow, Moxie, and 777 The Great Work. Battlestar Moon is beautiful.

    The Goddess of This World (or was it the Queen of Heaven?) just gave me a verbal warning: This is so fitting...because I feel like a Columbo character...sticking my nose where it doesn't belong! Unfortunately...chasing the Gods and Goddesses is driving me crazy! All of this is enough to drive a man to drink!

    Here is a comment from Kelphi:

    Ortho, One is only un-blinded of Gods truth from one source only- The Holy Spirit. God has spoken. His Word is true. Man will go to great lengths before bowing the knee to God. And for most it will be too late.

    You will one day confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, this is true for all, but you had better hope you did this before His day. I believe you have already heard and know the Gospel. But belief is all that is veiled from you. You know what to do my friend.

    Peace & Love,


    Kelphi, I confess that the words of Jesus Christ as interpreted by the Holy Spirit aka the Divinity Within Humanity is the Very Word of God to me. I embrace the Great Commission in Matthew 28. Your superior, condescending, and even threatening tone conflicts with you calling me friend...and your claim to peace and love.

    I consider all of the rambling and speculating I do to merely be stumblings in the right direction. I mean well...but I'm generally clueless. Unfortunately...the ones who really know the whole story aren't talking. If they started talking...they wouldn't be talking for long. This subject is a real Pandora's Box. Please be careful. Know when to stop.

    May I suggest watching the Ralph Ellis 1. 2. , Acharya S , and David Icke interviews on over and over...until it really sinks in. Then rewatch the Stargate SG1 series...rewatch all of Alex Collier's, Bill Cooper's, and Anna Hayes' videos on YouTube. Finally...rewatch 'V' (1983 and 2009). Things should start to fall into place. But don't join any stupd cults...or get involved with dangerous hocus-pocus and mumbo-jumbo groups. You may even wish to keep going to church for the music, architecture, art, fellowship, bingo, food, members of the opposite sex, business contacts, insights of the preacher/rabbi/priest...but don't worship anyone or anything other than the Divinity Within Humanity aka The Holy Spirit. Even Jesus said that the unpardonable sin was the Sin Against the Holy Spirit. I reverence the Teachings of Jesus...regardless of their source. Lucifer/Hathor could have written most of the Bible...for all I know. The Teachings of Jesus could be the greatest hits of ancient wisdom written by Lucifer/Hathor. But I tend to think that a Reptilian Satan made sure that the Teachings of Jesus never got any traction.

    I think that Lucifer/Hathor may be behind a lot of the governmental and religious systems throughout history (under the watchful eyes of Satan/Reptilians)...and that this very human being is alive and well presently...and posting on the internet. I may have to eat my words, and eat humble pie regarding the last sentence...but this presently makes sense to me. Fasten your seatbelts...hang on tight...and don't go me. I think that cool, calm, and rational interdisciplinary thinking is essential to sorting this stuff out. Combine faith and doubt. Do not neglect either.

    Here is another link which you might find interesting (John Rhodes):

    Cathedral - Crosby Stills and Nash


    Six o' clock
    In the morning, I feel pretty good
    So I dropped into the luxury of the Lords
    Fighting dragons and crossing swords
    With the people against the hordes
    Who came to conquer.

    Seven o'clock
    In the morning, here it comes
    I taste the warning and I am so amazed
    I'm here today, seeing things so clear this way
    In the car and on my way
    To Stonehenge.

    I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
    Sunlight pouring through the break of day.
    Stumbled through the door and into the chamber;
    There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
    And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
    And a feeling deep inside of me tells me
    This can't be the place

    I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
    All religion has to have its day
    Expressions on the face of the Saviour
    Made me say
    I can't stay.

    Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
    Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
    For anyone to heed the call.
    So many people have died in the name of Christ
    That I can't believe it all.

    And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
    And the day he died it was a birthday
    And I noticed it was mine.
    And my head didn't know just who I was
    And I went spinning back in time.
    And I am high upon the altar
    High upon the altar, high.

    I'm flying in Winchester cathedral,
    It's hard enough to drink the wine.
    The air inside just hangs in delusion,
    But given time,
    I'll be fine

    OK...I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mealy speculative mouth. Here's another 'what-if?' adventure:

    What if Humans and Reptilians evolved simultaneously...and genetically manipulated each other (mutual manipulation)...and eventually ended up in a Human controlled Universal Theocracy...with Humans as the Gods...and Reptilians as the Angels? What if God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were a Human Trinity...with the Father and Son being individuals...and the Holy Spirit being the Divinity Within Humanity (the souls in each person)? What if the Reptilian Race had a Shadow Trinity...consisting of Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel...or Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The Humans would be both physical and non-physical. The Reptilians would be both physical and non-physical.

    What if the Reptilians got sick and tired of this Theocratic BS...and Lucifer led a rebellion against the Human Race...which exploded into the War in Heaven...killing the Human God the Father? What if a third of the Human Race was taken as hostages and slaves (perhaps deceived)...some (or all) of whom ended up on Earth...under the rulership of the Reptilian Lucifer?

    I really started out with this general theory...before exploring other options. The one thing that remains the that we need to get past the Master/Slave and Corruption/Violence BS. Otherwise...I'm pretty darn easy. Perhaps too easy. Sometimes I feel like the Kumbaya Olive Branch of the Gizeh Intelligence.

    I'm asking you to look at a Human Trinity from all angles...and to look at a Reptilian Trinity from all angles. Look at all of the possibilities regarding the evolution/creation of both races. And finally to look at Church and State...and the subjects of Theocracy and Democracy...from all angles.

    What would a Reptilian Trinity vs Human Trinity conflict look like? There would be a lot of confusion and deception...wouldn't there. None of the mythologies or theologies could really be trusted...could they? We can't really trust anything or anyone...can we? We just have to keep digging...keep asking questions...and keep speculating...without becoming enraged or going insane. What fun!

    Here is one version of a resolution of the mess we are in...written by Ellen the late 1800' a book titled 'The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan':

    "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Revelation 21:22. The people of God are privileged to hold open communion with the Father and the Son. "Now we see through a glass, darkly." 1 Corinthians 13:12

    We behold the image of God reflected, as in a mirror, in the works of nature and in His dealings with men; but then we shall see Him face to face, without a dimming veil between. We shall stand in His presence and behold the glory of His countenance. {GC 676.4}

    There the redeemed shall know, even as also they are known. The loves and sympathies which God Himself has planted in the soul shall there find truest and sweetest exercise. The pure communion with holy beings, the harmonious social life with the blessed angels and with the faithful ones of all ages who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, the sacred ties that bind together "the whole family in heaven and earth" (Ephesians 3:15)--these help to constitute the happiness of the redeemed. {GC 677.1}

    There, immortal minds will contemplate with never-failing delight the wonders of creative power, the mysteries of redeeming love. There will be no cruel, deceiving foe to tempt to forgetfulness of God. Every faculty will be developed, every capacity increased. The acquirement of knowledge will not weary the mind or exhaust the energies. There the grandest enterprises may be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations reached, the highest ambitions realized; and still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of mind and soul and body. {GC 677.2}

    All the treasures of the universe will be open to the study of God's redeemed. Unfettered by mortality, they wing their tireless flight to worlds afar--worlds that thrilled with sorrow at the spectacle of human woe and rang with songs of gladness at the tidings of a ransomed soul. With unutterable delight the children of earth enter into the joy and the wisdom of unfallen beings. They share the treasures of knowledge and understanding gained through ages upon ages in contemplation of God's handiwork. With undimmed vision they gaze upon the glory of creation--suns and stars and systems, all in their appointed order circling the throne of Deity. Upon all things, from the least to the greatest, the Creator's name is written, and in all are the riches of His power displayed. {GC 677.3}

    And the years of eternity, as they roll, will bring richer and still more glorious revelations of God and of Christ. As knowledge is progressive, so will love, reverence, and happiness increase. The more men learn of God, the greater will be their admiration of His character. As Jesus opens before them the riches of redemption and the amazing achievements in the great controversy with Satan, the hearts of the ransomed thrill with more fervent devotion, and with more rapturous joy they sweep the harps of gold; and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of voices unite to swell the mighty chorus of praise. {GC 678.1}

    "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13. {GC 678.2}

    The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love. {GC 678.3}

    Take a very, very long and very, very hard look at the following:

    1. Archangel Gabriel
    2. Archangel Michael
    3. Archangel Lucifer
    4. Ancients or Founders
    5. Anunnaki Reptilians
    6. Draconian Reptilians
    7. Grey Reptilians
    8. Interdimensional Reptilians
    9. God and Satan
    10. Angels and Demons
    11. Human Beings
    12. God the Father
    13. God the Son
    14. God the Holy Spirit
    15. Theology and Theocracy
    16. Heaven and the Garden of Eden
    17. Rebellion and War in Heaven
    18. Expulsion and Exodus
    19. Law, Covenant, and Constitution
    20. Slavery and Freedom
    21. Creation and Evolution
    22. Love and Responsibility

    What are the precise definitions, descriptions, interactions, and overlaps of these words? This may be the most important study one can possibly make. Lay aside your preconceived notions...and forget the bad experiences you may have had in connection with religion and church. Theology is at the center of Disclosure. The Jesuits know exactly what I'm talking about...but they are quite mysterious and secretive. They have very short leashes...and their masters carry very big sticks.

    Disclosure = The PTB telling us the truth about all of the above...without telling us the truth about all of the above. I'm still enamored with the idea of applying Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom to both the Human and the Reptilian races...both internally and cooperatively. Unfortunately...reason and solutions are often unwelcome in the heat of battle...especially when hatred, fear, and pride override everything else.

    I have repeatedly suggested that the really hard-core negative ET's should be removed from this Solar System...and I still feel that way. But what if we are basically cattle to the present negative ET's...and thus receive some protection from them from even worse ET's? It seems to me that there would have to be a universal consensus to grant us freedom and sovereignty in this Solar System. I'm presently very interested in Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer...especially regarding the Luciferian rebellion (against Ra?) and the War in Heaven. Our plight seems to be directly related to a continuation of the original War in Heaven. Is there basically a three way power struggle for control of the Human Race? Could the following be true:

    First Race: Represented by The Founders aka The Ancients aka God the Father aka Ra? Destroyed in the War in Heaven?

    Second Race: Represented by the Angel Gabriel (Pro Ra), Zionist?

    Third Race: Represented by the Angel Michael (Neutral), Andromedan, Christ-like?

    Fourth Race: Represented by the Angel Lucifer (Anti-Ra), Teutonic Zionist?

    Fifth Race: Represented by Jesus Christ? The Human Race?

    Are the first four hypothetical races various types of Reptilian and/or Human Races? Or...are they all Draconian? Was/is the War in Heaven fought over the Human Race? Where was/is Heaven? Try not to think about this from a traditional Judeo-Christian or a New Age perspective. Sort of start from scratch...and think way out of the box. I think this may be important. Are one or two of the above the real problem(s) here on Earth? Lucifer has a bad reputation...but I keep sensing that there's someone worse than Lucifer...named Satan, perhaps? I don't have the answers. I just want to try to make you think, and think, and think!

    Here's a really creepy trailer for the new movie "Legion" (viewer discretion advised): Could at least part of the basic premise presented here be true?

    This video clip from Stargate SG-1 shows Human Gods and Goddesses possessed by the Goa'uld: Could there be some truth to this?

    I think I keep catching glimpses of the way things really are...but I can't create a concise yet comprehensive picture of what's really going on. I'm reading a Courtney Brown free E-book...which, if true, is mind-boggling and unbelievable. It's basically remotely viewed...which seems pretty creepy to me. I suspect a mixture of fact and deception. I'm very suspicious of most everything!

    Were the Founders or Ancients really Human Beings? Did an originally very good Human God become corrupt and insane while theocratically ruling both Humans and Reptilians...with the Reps being mistreated? (Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely) Was this the Original Sin? Did this result in the Luciferian Rebellion and War in Heaven? Were most Human Beings destroyed...including the Human God? Are we some of the few Human Beings who survived? Is the Universe presently a Reptilian Theocracy or Universal Church? Is Earth a Planet in Rebellion? Are most of the religions (historical and contemporary) really Reptilian Religions? Are we kept alive by Reptilians who are somewhat sympathetic to the plight of Humanity...or are we kept alive by the Reps in the same way that a rancher protects his herd of cattle? Is our misery and plight part of a cosmic 'Pay Back Time'? Are the Reptilian PTB lead by Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer? Do they argue and fight regarding our fate? Are they Human, Reptilian, or Hybrid? Is the Reptilian Agenda to place Reptilian Souls in Human Bodies...and to Exterminate/Enslave Humanity to an Unfathomable Extent? Is the New World Order really a Reptilian Kingdom of God? If all of the above is true...what would convince the Reps to base the Universe on Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...and to support Human Sovereignty in This Solar least? These questions are not rhetorical.

    The Great Work asked "Y do u call yourself, the ortho- box mor -on??"

    Because, in one sense, I am very orthodox, reverent, conservative, and historically oriented. In another sense, I am very irreverent, liberal, and futuristic. Also...a lot of people think I'm crazy or a moron...even though I can be quite clever at times...especially in print. Put that all together and you have an oxymoron. Therefore orthodoxy + oxymoron + moron = orthodoxymoron. Dr. Laura Schlessinger uses the same nickname...but I didn't copy her...and I don't think she copied me!

    Jonah said "Hello there Ortho,

    Keepin busy i see...

    well im going to join you on your imaginative contemplation of Dragonhood. Although i will be careful because it is not my wish to start any more fuss from people who seem to take things and put them in there head and then say attack!!! No thank you... my fear comes from myself... this i learned sometime ago... anyway...

    As to your quote above..... I am speculative as to the outcome of such a "evolution" will call it... however... i do not see anything in Abrax's material about Reptilians.... I took the whole dragon thing as follows :once all personal archetypes of lineage (from the stars) have been fulfilled than a person can begin the transformation of the material body to fully encompass their light body.... or dragon body... but I may have missed something.."

    This is not a fear-mongering thread or a Thuban fan-club thread. It is quite academic and detached. There is no aspiration, veneration, or hatred. I mostly ask questions and have a lot of video links (if they still work after all of the site meltdowns). I've come to the conclusion that the Bible is a mixture of good and evil...and that the actual words attributed to Jesus are the best part. Here are some links to some irreverent threads which express some of my rambling non-authoritative thoughts on the subject.









    Is Alpha Draconis not the center of the Draconian Reptilian civilization (according to folks who claim to know)? Are Dragons not Reptilian? If not...what are they? What is a Drac? All of this is interrelated...and the abraxasinas/Thuban material seems to support my original hypothesis and early posts on this (and other) threads. I am requesting a title change of the current thread to:

    God, Jesus, Satan, Lucifer, Gabriel, Michael, Amen Ra, Hathor, Abraxasinas, Thubans, et al

    I'm not really into the 'duality' and 'illusion' jargon. There is concretely positive and negative, good and evil, benevolent and malevolent, progressive and regressive, angels and demons...although perceptions and interpretations can be illusory at times. Whatever happened to Sin? 'Thuban Thoughts' thread is still not available...even though it contains nothing sexual or attack-oriented...and is not an abraxasinas thread. Why? Did it really tick the negative entities off? If so...GOOD! Bring it on! Let's go! Actually...why don't we just all get along...and be benevolent and loving beings...instead of being jerks? I know that there are good and evil entities around me 24/7...and I often talk to them...but I don't pray to them. Sometimes I even swear at them...and flip them off! I may have a lot more than a monkey on my back. I may have an interdimensional reptilian IN my back. I once saw an internet message saying 'we're in your back'. Supposedly reptilians can latch onto humans via their lower chakras. I don't think I'm possessed...but I'm pretty sure that I'm harrassed 24/7. They'd probably like to do a lot more to me...if they could. Who knows...maybe they will.

    My 'Thuban Thoughts' thread is still unavailable...even though the Thuban Q&A thread is available in read-only form. Is this a simple oversight...or is there a legitimate (or illegitimate) reason why? In the meantime...please closely examine posts #158 and #159 for a series of questions and answers which I find quite revealing. I still see abraxasinas/walk-in as being in defection mode...and revealing a lot of inside dragon-land stuff. I could be very wrong. How hard would it be for a top-level darkside host/walk-in to transition to the love and light side? I think it might be nearly impossible. However...I think that a huge number of human and non-human defections...from darkness to light...will be necessary to resolve this conflict of the ages. Some have suggested that this isn't going to happen...and that the reptilian beings will just laugh. Well...laughter is a good maybe that's a start. I will continue to dream...and continue to seek reconciliation and restoration. I will not pursue trench-warfare and triumphalism. I'm thinking that both the human and reptilian races are guilty as hell...and that's pretty guilty. I'm not sure what the proper relationship should be between these two major races...but I'm hopeful that a balance-point can be achieved. Namaste abraxasinas. Namaste Thubans. Namaste Lucifer. Namaste Gabriel. Namaste Michael. Namaste Humans. Namaste Reptilians. Namaste Demons. Namaste Angels. Namaste Benevolent Beings of the Universe. Namaste Malevolent Beings of the Universe. A new commandment give I unto you: "Thou Shalt Have No Gods". This is the first and last commandment.

    Jonah said "Ortho... we are in the process of restoring your thread... may have to be read only...

    what was it you wanted me to rename this thread to again.. i seem to have deleted your email??"

    Thank-you for you consideration Jonah. I am requesting a title change of the current thread to:

    God, Jesus, Satan, Lucifer, Gabriel, Michael, Amen Ra, Hathor, Abraxasinas, Thubans, et al

    Any Thuban thoughts? Is there currently an open Thuban thread? Can this subject be discussed in a detached and academic manner? Imagine being in a graduate class at Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, or Harvard...meeting in an old and elegant lecture hall...with a professor who might be a lot like Joseph Farrell. Imagine discussing abraxasinas and the Thuban material in this setting...with a hundred doctoral candidates. Things would be a lot different than the chaos we have witnessed recently...wouldn't it? Why can't we conduct business in this manner and fashion?

    Has anyone gotten abraxasinas's take on all of this? Has Tango said anything recently about this? It sounds as though my 'Thuban Thoughts' thread might be read-only. We'll have to wait and see on that one...but this implies to me that the stated reasons for the banning of abraxasinas and the closure of the Thuban related threads are merely the tip of the iceberg. Who is really in charge of what is occurring. I'm just feeling as though this is not administrative business as usual. I'm not impatient or angry...but I am worried.

    OK...I'm still not seeing 'Thuban Thoughts'...even in read-only form. Was it something I said? If someone has access to this may wish to examine it with a fine-toothed comb. I have no idea what might have been problematic. The actual abraxasinas quotes and Thuban material are quite brief. The comments were all quite polite and on-topic. So...what's going on here? Has Bill or Kerry said anything about the abraxasinas situation in the last few days? I don't care so much about administrative I do about the integrity of the administrative process and chain of command. Has anyone reviewed posts 158 and 159? Any thoughts? I feel like the Man Behind the Iron Curtain! Or...The Man Who Never Was! I don't know why I said that! I just thought it sounded cool!


    Could we this in great detail? Even if this is total might be a profitable exercise in examining an alien proposal or mandate. This could come in handy later on. Even if abraxasinas and the Thuban thing is a complete fabrication...could bits and pieces of all of this reveal important information regarding what we are dealing with? Did you like my little joke in the previous thread? I just couldn't resist...but I probably should have. Someone can generate all sorts of BS...and make it sound all complicated and technical. I didn't even work at making this believable. I just randomly did a word association game combined with pure, unmitigated popycock...and I'm sure it shows. I don't even want to wait and see if anyone takes the bait. I'm not that kind of guy! I may add my comments in red (a red-letter edition of the alien constitution!) to shed light on what is really being stated in this document. I doubt that it is genuine...but one never knows. It could be representative of a proposed, or actual, alien constitution...which might become the law of the land on Earth.

    I'd really like to have some in depth online conversation and even a really first-class manner...with the members of this forum. What would it really be like to sit in on meetings of very informed people and other than people...who are discussing what to do about this Solar System and it's inhabitants...human and non-human. Would these be pleasant and cordial meetings...or would there be a lot of shouting? Would armed guards be standing by...both human and non-human. Do firefights sometimes erupt at these a drug-deal gone-bad? What do we really think about abraxasinas and the this point...after all of the confusion? I'm really undecided. I don't really know what happened. How are we to know what's genuine...and what's completely fabricated? I continue to like the idea of remaining detached and polite...but not being afraid to ask questions which might be upsetting to the aliens, spirits, entities...or whoever. I like the idea of being genuine with them. I think they're smart enough to know if we're being real or if we're being fake. I just wish that I really, really knew the totality of the history of the universe...or at least all of the crucial aspects. Most of what we flying blind. Everyone has a different version of the 'way it really is'. The process of conversation and decision-making is what really concerns me. I'm not seeing a consistent flow of logical thinking, and in-depth research. That goes for much as for anyone else. I see a lot of knee jerking...and other kinds of...never mind.

    My last comment on the Thuban Q&A has me worried...the one regarding a Solar System Exorcism and the establishment of the United States of the Solar System. Did that cause a problem? I certainly hope not. I just have a problem with enslavement, extermination, and being treated like a herd of cattle by an alien race...who could possibly be downright demonic. However...I think everything we do in Avalon is pretty low-level...but what if the whole abraxasinas/Thuban thing was a significant part of disclosure? How would we know? Disclosure might be a very strange and rocky process. It might not be anything like what we might imagine it to be. Who knows...we may have witnessed the real deal. I'd like to know what's really going on...and what the real issues are. Should we even be interested...if we can't know the facts? I hope that some sort of a factual statement regarding the abraxasinas/Thuban thing will be forthcoming. I always feel like I'm trying to walk on ice...or trying to build on shifting sand. I have absolutely no idea what beings throughout the Solar System think about what we do here. I wish we could have some authoritative conversation at some point. I really hate this speculation and guessing game. I'm ready to go back to sleep. On the other hand...I'm not sure I ever woke-up. I just listened to Alex Jones and Jessie Ventura for about 20 minutes...and they're in a whole different league. I don't really know what team I'm on. I don't really know who the good guys and bad guys are. I keep thinking that I should just shut-up...and try to make a significant amount of money...for the first time in my life. But then I start feeling guilty. I remember reading a poem in college titled 'Terrance, this is stupid stuff'. Maybe this really is stupid stuff. Maybe we're just sampling the poison store. See the final verse of this poem...a couple of posts below.

    Who knows...maybe Bigmo is really John May!! (the one in 'V') Just kidding!! The whole abraxasinas/Thuban thing was quite bizzare. Again...I wish to take a very close look at that Dragonian Constitution material. I'll do that later today...after I get some rest. That "Thuban Thoughts" disappearance really has me spooked. (it doesn't take much) is 'Terrance, this is stupid stuff' (which I referred to in a previous post). The final verse is the key. The king gradually increased his exposure to various poisons...and built up an immunity to that when his enemies poisoned his food...he ate it without effect. Then he made his enemies eat the food they poisoned...and they died. Maybe we really are like the in Avalon. It's good to be king. Long live the king. Long live Avalon.

    A. E. Housman (1859–1936). A Shropshire Lad. 1896.

    LXII. Terence, this is stupid stuff

    ‘TERENCE, this is stupid stuff:
    You eat your victuals fast enough;
    There can’t be much amiss, ’tis clear,
    To see the rate you drink your beer.
    But oh, good Lord, the verse you make,
    It gives a chap the belly-ache.
    The cow, the old cow, she is dead;
    It sleeps well, the horned head:
    We poor lads, ’tis our turn now
    To hear such tunes as killed the cow.
    Pretty friendship ’tis to rhyme
    Your friends to death before their time
    Moping melancholy mad:
    Come, pipe a tune to dance to, lad.’

    Why, if ’tis dancing you would be,
    There’s brisker pipes than poetry.
    Say, for what were hop-yards meant,
    Or why was Burton built on Trent?
    Oh many a peer of England brews
    Livelier liquor than the Muse,
    And malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God’s ways to man.
    Ale, man, ale’s the stuff to drink
    For fellows whom it hurts to think:
    Look into the pewter pot
    To see the world as the world’s not.
    And faith, ’tis pleasant till ’tis past:
    The mischief is that ’twill not last.
    Oh I have been to Ludlow fair
    And left my necktie God knows where,
    And carried half way home, or near,
    Pints and quarts of Ludlow beer:
    Then the world seemed none so bad,
    And I myself a sterling lad;
    And down in lovely muck I’ve lain,
    Happy till I woke again.
    Then I saw the morning sky:
    Heigho, the tale was all a lie;
    The world, it was the old world yet,
    I was I, my things were wet,
    And nothing now remained to do
    But begin the game anew.

    Therefore, since the world has still
    Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure
    Luck’s a chance, but trouble’s sure,
    I’d face it as a wise man would,
    And train for ill and not for good.
    ’Tis true, the stuff I bring for sale
    Is not so brisk a brew as ale:
    Out of a stem that scored the hand
    I wrung it in a weary land.
    But take it: if the smack is sour,
    The better for the embittered hour;
    It should do good to heart and head
    When your soul is in my soul’s stead;
    And I will friend you, if I may,
    In the dark and cloudy day.

    There was a king reigned in the East:
    There, when kings will sit to feast,
    They get their fill before they think
    With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
    He gathered all the springs to birth
    From the many-venomed earth;
    First a little, thence to more,
    He sampled all her killing store;
    And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
    Sate the king when healths went round.
    They put arsenic in his meat
    And stared aghast to watch him eat;
    They poured strychnine in his cup
    And shook to see him drink it up:
    They shook, they stared as white’s their shirt:
    Them it was their poison hurt.
    —I tell the tale that I heard told.
    Mithridates, he died old.

    Stardustaquarion said "orthodoxymoron, Ashayana in the interview with Jeff Rense talks about the Draconians and Reptilians, I thought it may be of interest to you. Love"

    Thank-you Stardustaquarion. I'm going to listen to it now. I think Ashayana knows a hell of a lot...but I don't necessarily trust her...or believe everything she says. But then again...I don't trust anyone...especially myself. And that's the truth.


    Posts : 7957
    Join date : 2010-09-28

    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:38 am

    I find it sad that hardly anyone will communicate with me -- yet I feel supernaturally attacked 24/7. Isn't this somewhat cowardly?? I'm feeling zero love from divinity or humanity -- and I'm frankly becoming tougher by the day. I'm feeling more and more like a general or a commander in Star Wars -- even though I hate this. Unfortunately, my idealism is confronting the way things really are -- and probably will be for a very long time. I am becoming more and more cynical. I'm feeling more and more like a warrior. I sometimes wonder if a composite of the Stargate SG-1 characters (including the system-lords) is a reasonable model for those who wish to make a difference in this solar system. I think I've been way too soft, slow, and stupid in this particular incarnation -- but I suspect that I've been a terror in some of my other incarnations. I think I've been way too understanding and open throughout my life. Perhaps attempting to be on everyone's side has been a grave mistake. Perhaps it is time to solidify my views -- and begin to circle the wagons -- in preparation for battle -- figurative and/or literal. Perhaps the jokes should end. I've tried to be funny -- but I perceive that this has been a serious mistake. You had a nice-guy to deal-with -- but I fear that time has passed.

    I'm going to begin speculating about a hypothetical mediator or mediatrix between the Human and Reptilian races...spanning thousands...or even millions...of years. This would involve a Human Spirit God of This World...and a Reptilian Spirit God of This World...cohabitating an Apostolic Succession of Human Bodies. Theanthropos? Baldacchino? Co-mediatrix? This concept is really at the core of this entire thread...and may be at the core of the abraxasinas/Thuban phenomenon...if it is legitimate and real. Don't laugh at me. This is something which needs to be carefully examined. Go through this entire thread...and see what you think. I'm just going to attempt to take this concept to the next level (of absurdity?)!! This is a wild ride...isn't it? I really believe that such a being exists...historically and presently...and that they are the key to the future of humanity. I could be very wrong...but that's my story...and I'm sticking to it...for now. They're probably reading this thread.

    Hello Hathor/Mary! I'd really like to have a proper question and answer thread with you someday. I might not do too well...face to face. I think better with my fingers! I hope that you are doing OK. Think before you flame!

    Think long and hard about the avatar of abraxasinas in the Thuban Q&A thread. I think that this being is at the center of disclosure...which might be of a very startling nature. I am not on a triumphalistic any way, shape, or form. I merely seek understanding...and a resolution to the horrible mess which humanity seems to be stuck in. I prefer a non-violent resolution...but I am a pragmatic person...sometimes. Disclosure might consist of a series of false-starts and missteps. It may play out just the opposite of what one might expect in a Hollywood movie. Disclosure might turn out to be a huge disappointment to most ufologists...and to the general public. The elites already know. What did they know...and when did they know it?

    Consider this thread as a step toward a New Theology. Find your own your own time. If you've lost your faith...then find a new one. My intent wasn't to turn people into bitter and angry atheists. My New Theology consists of this thread...combined with the Amen Ra thread...the United States of the Solar System thread...and the Red Letter Church thread...basically. I'll probably be working out the details for the rest of my life. Good luck with your quest. Don't take life too seriously. On the other hand...perhaps we need to take life more Siriusly. Namaste. :wink2:

    I don't know if the following really 'fits' in with this thread...but I'm listening to an Anna Hayes / Jeff Rense interview...and I had a thought. What if people like Alex Collier, Anna Hayes, Leo Zagami, Tony/abraxasinas, et al have to make an agreement with non-human entities to promote a certain agenda? They are given access to certain forbidden information...but they have to present it in a certain my theory goes. They might be given 50% truth and 50% bs...which they have to intermingle...with a certain editorial slant. This is just another one of my crazy speculations. I'm trying to stop. I really am. I'm thinking that there is a lot of deal-making which goes on. Even the Bible speaks of the 'Old Covenant' and the 'New Covenant'. There is the supposed 1954 Greada Treaty...among others. I continue to think that we got our @$$ kicked in an ancient war...and that OUR technology and wisdom was stolen from us...and we were genetically and educationally dumbed down by our conquerors. I think they need us...because it's really our technology...and perhaps human beings are the only ones who can use it. Perhaps the non-humans have to use human slaves to work with this ancient technology and wisdom. In the Stargate SG-1 episode 'The Fifth Race'...only a human (Capt. O'Neil) is able to be programmed with the knowledge of the ancients. Perhaps the Ptah, the Founders, the Ancients...or God the Creator...are really Ancient Human Beings. I tend to think that a lot of aliens would like to let us go...but if they did so...and we realized how badly we have been misused and abused...up to and including the killing of an Ancient Human God...we might go berzerk...and begin a brand-new Star War against the alien races. Who knows? I'm sure the Shadow Government knows...but it sounds like they're in so much trouble...and into this thing so deep...that they can't do a damn thing about it. It sounds like they are not in control of what's going on here on Earth. Commoners like you and me might be required to sort a lot of this stuff out. Just a thought. We haven't been mind controlled...and we haven't signed binding we may be the only ones with the necessary freedom to be able to solve some of the perplexities facing humanity. Just more speculation on my part. Once again...I really intend to stop. I've had quite enough...but I do believe I'll have another drink. A real strong one. One more thing...Anna Hayes described three alien factions which the elites have agreements with...if I heard correctly. I have been speculating about three major factions. Also...there are supposedly three major bases below one of the polar icecaps. I keep thinking about Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer. Maybe I should just smoke a great big the one in 'Up in Smoke'. :smoke: That was some good $**+ man!

    I hesitated to begin this thread. I am torn. I want truth and goodness to triumph...yet achieving this is a very painful process. The history of our world is very sad and violent. No organization or country has escaped this brutal gang of facts. The history of the Vatican is a huge part of our history...and this includes all of us. There should be no angry finger pointing. The video which I am posting is critical...yet not hateful or vindictive. I am offended by the cartoons, photoshopped pictures of the Pope, hurtful internet comments, etc, etc. There should not be a hateful, superior, triumphalistic, or sing-song attitude manifested toward anyone or any organization. This includes the Vatican.

    Everyone should research the Vatican...whether they are religious or not. There are so many aspects of our historical and contemporary world which are interconnected with the Vatican. All roads lead to Rome. I'm not a Roman Catholic...and I never have been...but I have attended dozens of masses and concerts. I adore the art, architecture, and music...even the art and architecture with pagan aspects. I have been in many cathedrals...and I have been to the Vatican. It is truly impressive. I have had very good luck with the Roman Catholics I have known and worked with...including priests and musicians. They are doing the best they can.

    However, there is something which seems to torment the soul of the Roman Catholic Church. I fear that the hierarchy has to deal with unimaginable problems...which may include dealing with the devil himself(or herself). They may be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Does the Vatican mediate between Lucifer and the Human Race? Is it the Human Race vs the Underworld? We may be in more trouble than we think. Watch the following video with an open and non-judgmental mind. Connect the Dots. Respond Responsibly. Any thoughts or reaction to the video? Tell me what you think...positive or negative.

    Once again...I'm seeing very little interest in something which I think is extremely important. I'd like to discuss this in a rational and charitable manner. The better we deal with this sort of thing...the more willing the insiders will be to reveal more...and work toward resolving this mess...together as We the People of Earth. Please take the time to consider these videos as a group...and tell me what you think.

    Thank-you. I alternate between not wanting to think about this stuff at all...and wanting to really help solve this mess...and help the human race to move on to bigger and better things than war, starvation, financial crisis, meaninglessness, etc, etc. The retrospect...may be very, very simple...yet it may take thousands of years to recognize this answer to any significant degree...apply it globally...and rescue ourselves. Think about the Vatican, Tesla, Advanced Technology, Underground Bases and Cities, City States, Atlantis, Lemuria, Lucifer, the Nazis, and the New World Order. Then read what I have written below. Then take a long walk...face yourself...and think long and hard.

    Have you ever watched 'Brides of Christ'? If not...please's really good...and made me cry. The human race has so much negative baggage. I don't hate anyone or any organization. I just want the human race to get out of the quicksand. This may take a long time...and a lot of pain. I think that eventually the human race will emerge with a highly ethical secular spirituality which will not involve church attendance, rituals, or hocus pocus of any kind. I believe that we survive our physical deaths...and simply get recycled...whether we are good or bad. This makes it all the more important that we create a better world to return to. This is our home.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Could the UFO/ET phenomenon be from within Earth...rather than from outer space? Could 'alien' technology be ancient human(or reptilian) knowledge? Could the city states...including the controlled from within Earth? Is much of the ET phenomenon really demonic in nature? Is Earth's crust riddled with tunnels, cities, and bases? Is nuclear weaponry, anti-gravity, free-energy, and other space-age technology really from the Vatican Library...and/or other ancient texts stored underground...rather than back engineered from outer-space UFO's? Is that giant Earth sculpture representative of what is really within Earth? Could many of the church atrocities have been ordered from within Earth...rather than by deranged power and money hungry surface humans? Is the true God of the Universe largely shut out of Earth...leaving surface humans to deal with powerful human and reptilian beings(both physical and spiritual) from within Earth? Is the Pope the Vicar of Lucifer...rather than the Vicar of Christ? Does the church or Pope have any real choice in the matter? Are we really dealing with basically good people...negotiating with and battling dark underground forces?

    Am I a paranoid, neurotic, deluded wretch who is blaspheming God...and will be punished in the flames of hell...after the Jesuits get done with me? I'm sort of kidding...and sort of serious! I really mean well...and am trying to help...but there is the possibility that I am making things worse by raising these issues. My mind is not made up on any of these subjects...and probably never will be. I'm open to new information and re-evaluation.

    Thank-you for the link. I'm checking it out. The church seems to contain the best and the worst people in the world. There must be huge daily power struggles and debates within the church...behind closed doors. Have you former Catholics ever watched Pat Condell? He's a bitter ex-Catholic atheist! He's very rude and irreverent...yet he makes a lot of sense...and is very funny.

    I keep worrying that the people in the history books or on the evening news are not calling the shots...and that non-humans may be telling the people and organizations we love to hate...what to do. If I were an elite with immense power, wealth, influence, etc...I would probably try to create heaven on earth...and run as clean and tight a ship as possible. No human sacrifices, no financing both sides in wars that I started, no crashing stock markets and ruining economies, no starvation, no satanic rituals, no atrocities, no environmental nightmares, no extermination, no enslavement, etc, etc, etc. I would try to get the people of the world to really like me...and bypass all the corrupt and destructive bs...while I continued to live in my seaside my Enzo Ferrari, attend social functions, etc. I see some of the smartest people doing the most bizarre, corrupt, and destructive things imaginable. I like what I see and hear when NWO people are interviewed...yet I hate the NWO. Sometimes I think the NWO people hate the NWO too...but don't have a choice in the matter. Perhaps I am being too kind to these people...but I am sensing something very evil behind what I think are front men and errand boys. Is Lucifer calling the shots? Is Lucifer a little old lady reptilian/human hybrid from Atlantis? Think about it...a very, very smart...very, very evil...and very, very cruel being wearing a flowing cape and a jeweled crown...issuing orders both verbally and telepathically...while sitting on a throne in an underground cathedral more dazzling than St. Peter's. Could this being be playing God and Satan at the same control and enslave humanity? Far-fetched? Probably...but I'm thinking in this direction at this time. That could change in 5 minutes. I'm in the speculation business. Unfortunately I'm wasting a lot of time...driving myself (and others?) insane...and making no money. How stupid is that?

    I guess I'm looking for the highest standards and practice of psychology, ethics, and spirituality...without all of the ritual religious baggage. I don't want to start another religion...a true one this time. I don't want to be a spiritually bankrupt atheist. I don't want to channel ancient...and supposedly superior...disembodied entities. I just want to go through life without hurting, killing, stealing from...or otherwise screwing my fellow humans. Then I would like to get recycled...if it's not too much trouble.

    I found this interchange between Jordan Maxwell and Alex Jones to be very interesting: In this thread...I am not trying to blame the Catholics for all of the evil and destruction in the world. I am trying to get at what is behind many groups and individuals...which continues to divide and conquer us. In the recent Project Camelot interview with Joseph Farrell...he makes a comment regarding present day Germany...which seems to coincide with the Maxwell/Jones clip. I can't remember the details. Watch the interview...which is fantastic...and you'll notice it.

    Here is a clip of Malachi Martin being interviewed by Art Bell(warning: the video is graphic and the subject is exorcism): This stuff is real. Here is another video: I don't agree with everything in this one...especially the part about the Pope going to hell. I don't believe in heaven and hell as historically presented...and I certainly don't know the heart of anyone.

    Thank-you no caste. There is plenty of dirt...if one wishes to dig. I can only stomach so much...and then I have to move on to more pleasant subjects.

    golden lady: I'm glad you like the thread. It's sort of a necessary evil. I don't relish this subject...but it seems to be central to understanding how this world really works.

    If you want to really 'Murder in the Vatican' by Lucien Gregoire...regarding the death of Pope John Paul I. This book really made my hair stand on end. 'In God's Name' by David Yallop is another book which will keep you awake at night...

    To any practicing Roman Catholics: I'm not suggesting that you stop going to church...but I do think that being well informed is very important. Your local church and priests are probably a blessing to the community. It's just that I think there is a powerful dark side at the highest levels of the church...and that the visible church leaders may not be in ultimate control. I doubt that they are happy with the situation...but it may be nearly impossible to change things for the better. I think we are all in a lot of trouble.

    Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple with a whip. Perhaps this needs to happen again...

    Sometimes I wonder if the cathedral architecture, organ design and really from underground cathedrals. Reptilians are supposedly builders. Masons are builders. Hmmmm. According to biblical theology...Lucifer was the preeminent musician in heaven. Hmmmmm. As far as I know...they don't know who designed Chartres Cathedral. Imagine that! Sometimes I wonder if organists find music of unknown origin waiting for them when they arrive at the church to practice. Notice how complex and abstract the above music is. Have you ever seen the sheet music? I have some by Bach, Widor, Vierne, Dupre, etc. Devilishly difficult. We supposedly received religion and technology from the reptilians and greys. What else did we receive? The Vatican Library may contain the comprehensive answer to this question. The truth is in there. I'm not gonna say another word...

    What would happen if church services and masses were music only? No liturgy. No sermons. Just music...complete with organ, orchestra, choir, and congregation? The pastors and priests would be counselors...and would officiate at special services and ceremonies. There probably is not an easy answer. I am beginning to have a problem with the concept of worship and praise. It seems to me that this is what Lucifer aka Satan really wants and needs...and that the God of the Universe doesn't want or need this sort of thing at all. It makes me wonder who is really being worshipped and praised on Sun-God Day. I love the music, architecture, glory, and grandeur...but I am seeing a huge and fundamental problem. This applies to all churches...and not just the Roman Catholic Church. I don't go to church.

    If I did go to church...and attended a Roman Catholic Church...I would probably consider myself to be a...Pope John Paul I, Bishop Fulton Sheen, Father Malachi Martin...Roman Catholic. Those who are in the the Roman Catholic Church...really know. I would love to sit in a room full of Jesuits...and talk theology. Unfortunately...I might not make it out of there alive! They have a know! I just hope that the dark forces can be converted or exorcised from the church...and the entire world. I continue to think that the Roman Catholic Church is a major part of the problem...and potentially a major part of the solution.

    Please consider the following thread: It touches on some of the issues raised in this thread...and contains many positive solutions.

    Are the Vatican and Italy on good terms...or is there trouble brewing? The reason I the last post...and what Leo Zagami said recently when in 'prison'.

    One of the best kept Secrets of the Vatican is no longer a secret. It is now possible to purchase Indulgences Online with a Papal Account.

    My question continues to be...who is REALLY calling the shots? Is it a group of men sitting around at the Vatican...dreaming up all manner of evil and atrocity for Earth? Or...are these men TOLD what to do by evil aliens and/or evil spirits? If the second choice is the correct much of a choice do they have in the matter? I presently consider the Pope to be the Vicar of Lucifer...rather than the Vicar of Christ. I really don't think he has much of a choice. Christ is supposed to mediate between God and Humanity. I currently think that Christ stands between Lucifer(the God of This World) and Humanity...and that there is a war between the Vatican and Christ. Somehow...the Vatican must betray Lucifer and embrace Christ. But this might result in the Battle of Armageddon. They have embraced Lucifer...and betrayed Christ...for a hell of a lot more than 30 pieces of silver...believe me. This is simply my personal speculation.

    I've said it before...I like Roman Catholics. I have had very good luck with Roman Catholics. This includes priests and musicians. Human history is very violent and sad. Roman Catholic history is simply part of human history. It is our history. I don't wish to single them out as being the source of all evil in the world. I really think that they have had to deal with the devil...literally...throughout their ways we may not be able to even imagine. I just think that the all of it's gory details...needs to be matter how upsetting and disruptive this may be. It is time. I'm not an expert or authority on these subjects. I'm just trying to face reality...historically and presently. My internal insecurity and turmoil keeps me searching. We need to see the darkness and the light...and then focus on the light. I would never get into an angry argument with a Roman Catholic regarding their beliefs. I don't think they are lost souls. They are part of the human race...and I am pro-human. We need to rethink everything...and religion is a big part of this rethink. Keep going to church...but keep getting informed. If you're not going to don't need to go...but keep getting informed. There is no easy way to deal with this.

    PTL = Pass The Loot or Pay The Lady.

    Jesus didn't build churches and ask for why do his professed followers do this? Are the Teachings of Jesus at the center of Christianity? Are you kidding? We worship fame, fortune, and power. So...preachers and churches gain fame, fortune, and promoting a God of fame, fortune, and power. Clever. :sneaky2:

    On the other hand...there probably is a place for churches and church schools. The two should probably always combine their facilities to save money. of my favorite examples of a cost effective church/school a particular Roman Catholic church and school...where I think they got just about everything right. But I tend to think that churches and church schools should not be tax-exempt. They should be treated like any other business. Perhaps the model should be one of schools with concert halls...where excellence in psychology, ethics, spirituality, the arts and the norm. Preachers and churches should not lie to their people. They should not preach guilt and fear...along with fame, fortune, and order to collect more and more money...often from sincere people...who can't afford to give...and who receive emotional problems in return for all of their time, money, and effort.

    I don't believe in hell...but sometimes I wish there really was a hell...if you know what I mean.

    Some of you might find the following thread to be interesting in the context of this thread. Once again...just consider the factual information as part of the puzzle...without anger or rancor.

    Thank-you for your interest. Once again...I simply desire understanding regarding the most powerful visible organization on the planet. I have zero animosity. People should probably keep going to church. I just want a new reformation...based upon the Teachings of Jesus and the U.S. Constitution. I realize that this is anathema...but that it is the right thing to do in modernity. I envision a non-penitential and non-sacrificial Namaste Mass based upon the Latin Mass. I love the art, music, ceremony, fellowship, etc...but the Satanists and Moneychangers need to be driven out of the temple. Powerful off-world forces would probably need to approve these heretical reforms. I'm not a theologian...but this is how I see things presently.

    I like the idea of a 5% National Consumption Tax to fund legitimate Federal Government functions and projects...and the elimination of all the stupid tax forms, loopholes, etc. Why does everything have to be insane?

    That video clip was creepy. Check out 'Murder in the Vatican' by Lucien Gregoire regarding the untimely death of Pope John Paul I. I've enjoyed attending masses...but I do not enjoy the intrigue, murder, and mayhem. 'In God's Name' by David Yallop is another interesting book...if you like reading about corruption, intrigue, murder, and mayhem.

    I have no issues with rank and file Masons or Roman Catholics. What concerns me is who owns and operates this Solar System? My concerns are very high up. This is all about Solar System Administration. I am very, very interested in Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer. Who are they...REALLY? I am very frustrated regarding all of the threads I have started. I am very frustrated with my life. I keep seeing the light vs dark battles...but I can never seem to pin anything down...or get any traction whatsoever. I can see clearly now...but I can't do a damn thing! I used to think that the answer was in the Bible. Then I lost my faith...and I thought that the answer was blowing in the wind. Now...I think that the truth is Down There...under the surface of the Earth and the bases...possibly run by Draconian Reptilians.

    But I don't really know if these beings exist...and if they do...what their true nature really is. How many factions are there? Are they all bad? Are they all good? Are they a mixture of good and bad? Who's winning? Of Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer...who is the best...and who is the worst? Are they all Draconian Reptilians? Are they all Greys? Are they all Humans? Are they all of the above? Are they none of the above? Do they even exist? I've recently been thinking that Gabriel is the real problem...that Lucifer rebelled against Gabriel...and that Michael is the peacemaker. I'm toying with the idea that in "Heaven"...these three were at the pinnacle of the temple. I'm also toying with the idea that the "War in Heaven" was a three way power struggle among these three...which continues to this very on Earth. Could this be getting at the heart of the "Alien Presence" which drove Bill Cooper to drinking and irritability? Bill said that it wasn't the Jews, the Catholics, or the Masons, et al. He said that it was the Mystery Schools and Secret Societies. This thing could be very hard to pin down.

    I think I'm going to go and see "Avatar" and "Legion" this week...which will probably really mess with my already very confused and feeble mind. All of this is interesting...but I don't think it's doing me or anyone else much good. I want the truth...but I fear that the truth may push me (and a lot of other people) over the edge. Be careful as you research these subjects. I think that this is necessary work...for those who can handle it...but that it is truly playing with fire. Don't take this stuff lightly! On another thread I said that I needed to find a good Jesuit...but that a good Jesuit is hard to find!! When the dirt really hits the fan...and I think it will...I want a good CIA agent and a good Jesuit to help me through what may be quite literally 'Hell on Earth'. Remember the CIA type of guy in the original "V" who saved everyone's @$$? They didn't like him...but he knew what the hell was going on...and he knew what to do. Something to think about.

    The Satanists and the Money Changers need to be driven out of the an Italian Police Van! Then they can go to work on the Deep Underground Reptilian Bases! Of course...the good Reps and Greys can stay!

    In a sense...a Government is a Church...and a Church is a Government. They are two sides of the same coin. The question is 'What is the nature of the Church and the Government?' A "Constitutional Theocracy is a form of government in which within the context of a modern democracy a particular religion is granted a central role in the legal and political system. In contrast to a pure theocracy, power resides in political figures operating within the bounds of a constitution, rather than religious leadership. A form of government (also referred to as a system of government or a political system) is a system composed of various people, institutions and their relations in regard to the governance of a state. ... Theocracy is a form of government in which a religion and the government are intertwined..." Could the United States of America be under a Constitutional Theocracy presently? Could the United States of America have always been under such a Constitutional Theocracy? See Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution. Was the 1954 Greada treaty simply an extension of this hypothetical Constitutional Theocracy? Is the U.N. Charter superceding the U.S. Constitution a further expansion of a Constitutional Theocracy? To stop preaching...and go to meddling...How would the Roman Catholic Church function if it were based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...and was in complete harmony with the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Teachings of Jesus? Would a Pope be elected by the general membership every four years? Would the Teachings of Jesus, the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Will of the People...supercede Canon Law, the Curia, the Pope, the Black Pope (and whoever the Black Pope takes orders from)? Would this create chaos...or would it minimize evil and corruption? For Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom to work...the Roman Catholic Church would have to go along with it...and looking at history...this would be nearly impossible. The RCC is the biggest 'We Never Change Church' imaginable. The Sirius Powers That Be would have to order it done...or it would be a non-starter. For Sirius (and Alpha Draconis?) to sign-off on this...We the People of Earth would have to exhibit a significant level of Knowledge and Responsibility. There is presently a Forbidden Knowledge Explosion...and the BIG question is 'Will We the People of Earth Respond Responsibly?' How about a non-penetential and non-sacrificial Ecumenical Namaste Mass based upon the Latin Mass...Celebrating the Divinity Within Humanity? Now I'm really meddling! I'm an abominable heretic...yet I prefer the glory, grandeur, reverence, and awe of the traditional service...rather than the 'Jesus is my buddy, show-up in shorts and a t-shirt, praise-song, hippie reefer-madness'.

    1. 2. 3. 4.

    In a sense...I desire a Minimalist Humanistic Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom Theocracy . I simply desire that everything work out well for everyone...everywhere and everywhen.

    I just spoke with someone who says they are God. But they smoke and drink to smelly and loud drunkeness...and say they've never heard of the Jesuits! I even tried to talk this "God" out of destroying the world. He seemed to like maybe we have a chance! They reminded me of another person who told me they were going to walk on water...because they wanted a challenge! The first person considered America to be Babylon...rather than Rome being Babylon. I've heard other people say this as well. Leo Zagami hinted at this while in 'prison'. I hope Leo's OK. Sherry Shriner takes this view, as well. Bill Cooper pointed his finger at 'America' rather than Europe. Do Deep Underground Reptilian Bases under North America control even the Vatican? How deep is this snake hole? Is the inner Earth one big maze of snake holes...consisting of bases, cities, stargates, temples, cathedrals, leviton trains...all ruled by the God/Satan of This Prison Planet? I presently think that God is Satan...and that Humans are not in charge of Humanity. I'm seeing a very dark reality...with billions of victims. I really, really hope I'm wrong. I really don't enjoy seeing a demon behind every bush. (every Bush???!!!) Sorry...I couldn't resist. Nothing personal Magog!

    Update regarding "God". "God" has been looking for me...and I'm told that "God" dreamed that I was murdered...and this "God" appeared to be a 'vengeful God'...and very protective toward I'm told. I found this fascinating and chilling...because I have talked very little with this person....and they know nothing about my controversial threads and comments here on Avalon. I worry about that sort of thing...because if people really took me seriously...and if I'm correct about a lot of things...the results could make life difficult for a lot of the custodians of the status quo...and I think they know this very well. But not very many people latch on to what I there should be no real cause for concern...right? That's what I keep telling myself...but I'm not so sure. Believe it, or not, I'm trying to make life easier for everyone...including the really bad guys and gals...human and non-human. But just for the record...if anything happens to was NOT an accident or self inflicted. All of my close friends and relatives know this...and they have my top 10 list of suspects. Do you really want to turn me into a martyr...and discredit your own cause? If anyone is ever really bothered or threatened by what I to me. I'm reasonable...and I try really hard not to be stubborn. I will stop...if asked nicely and reasonably. I'm trying to dig into things that are already out there...and then formulate positive solutions...even though they don't seem positive sometimes. I have zero animosity toward anyone...really and truly. But perhaps I should cut back on my posting. Maybe I will.

    Mercuriel...the BS didn't start with the Vatican...or start when the Vatican was supposedly infiltrated. This goes back to the War in my opinion. There seems to be a very bitter and ancient conflict between the Human and Reptilian races. I don't know the details...but this whole thing has been playing out in the Pleiades, Aldebaran, Sirius, Mars, Atlantis, Lemuria, Babylon, Egypt, Rome, Jerusalem...and in the Roman Catholic Church...right from the beginning of this organization. If it hadn't been would've been another organization. This goes way deeper than corrupt men sitting around at the Vatican...dreaming up all manner of evil and atrocity for Planet Earth and the Human Race. It goes deep into Underground Reptilian Bases...I believe. A Draconian Reptilian may tell the Black Pope what to tell Pope Benedict. I think the top level Vatican hierarchy does exactly what they are told to do. That's just what I think. I don't really know...or have any inside information or proof. If I did...I probably wouldn't be safe on Pluto. Recently...I've been thinking that we are Prisoners of War on a Prison Planet with Grey Guards and a Reptilian Warden...and that the Reptilian Agenda for Earth is administered primarily through the City States (Vatican City, City of London, and Washington D.C.) and the United Nations. I tend to think that somehow we lost an ancient Human vs Reptilian war...and we are experiencing some sort of Payback Time. I'm speculating that the Universe is ruled by a Reptilian Universal Church Theocracy. My hope is that All Races will eventually embrace Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...which I think would be in everyone's best interest. I tend to agree with Jordan Maxwell...that we're pretty much $crewed. UNLESS...the Reptilians make an exception for this Solar System...and Theocratically Impose Human Sovereignty in this Solar System based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible the context of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of the context of the United Nations...and applied to the entire Solar System. This would have to be a top-down implementation. Anything else would probably be a blood-bath. This could serve as a test. The Reptilians might want to make this their modus operandi if the test is successful. Who knows?

    Wow lisa! I wasn't expecting that! Thank-you for the link! I did read 'In God's Name' by David Yallop...and it was quite revealing. 'Murder in the Vatican' by Lucien Gregoire was even more revealing. I'm hoping that the church can be completely reformed and purified. When Jesus tried to reform the church...he got murdered...and subsequently ignored and superceded...and put on bloody and nearly naked display throughout the the form of the crucifix. When Pope John Paul I tried to reform the church...he got murdered. And it sounds like Pope John Paul VI was murdered as well...for attempting to clean things up.

    My Comment: Update regarding "God". "God" has been looking for me...and I'm told that "God" dreamed that I was murdered...and this "God" appeared to be a 'vengeful God'...and very protective toward I'm told. I found this fascinating and chilling...because I have talked very little with this person....and they know nothing about my controversial threads and comments here on Avalon. I worry about that sort of thing...because if people really took me seriously...and if I'm correct about a lot of things...the results could make life difficult for a lot of the custodians of the status quo...and I think they know this very well. But not very many people latch on to what I there should be no real cause for concern...right? That's what I keep telling myself...but I'm not so sure. Believe it, or not, I'm trying to make life easier for everyone...including the really bad guys and gals...human and non-human. But just for the record...if anything happens to was NOT an accident or self inflicted. All of my close friends and relatives know this...and they have my top 10 list of suspects. Do you really want to turn me into a martyr...and discredit your own cause? If anyone is ever really bothered or threatened by what I to me. I'm reasonable...and I try really hard not to be stubborn. I will stop...if asked nicely and reasonably. I'm trying to dig into things that are already out there...and then formulate positive solutions...even though they don't seem positive sometimes. I have zero animosity toward anyone...really and truly. But perhaps I should cut back on my posting. Maybe I will.

    Your Comment: Nay Brother - Scream Your Truth to the Rafters...


    The Roman Catholic Church was taken over by Forces Loyal to the Fallen Ones on June 29th, 1963. It was then signified by the carrying from that point forward by the Pontiff Pope Peter the VI and all others since, of the Crooked or Bent Cross (Which is an Esoteric Symbol of the Antichrist).

    Pope John Paul the II and others have sat in a Chair with an Inverted Cross - Again the AntiChrist Symbol, and If You think that They've just missed that one while setting up the Area for His audiences - Then You haven't studied their Protocols in the right way. They miss nothing when setting up for a Papal audience and it's ALL on Purpose. Bank on that...


    Fish Hat = Dagon or Poseidon Worship...

    INRI = Ishtar / Nimrod / Rah Marduk / Isis (Inner Doctrine for the Initiate)

    INRI = Acronym of the Latin inscription 'IESVS·NAZARENVS·REX·IVDÆORVM' (Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum), which translates to English as "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews". (Outer Doctrine for the Profane)

    I could go on Ad Infinitum...

    My Comment: Mercuriel...the BS didn't start with the Vatican...or start when the Vatican was supposedly infiltrated. This goes back to the War in my opinion. There seems to be a very bitter and ancient conflict between the Human and Reptilian races. I don't know the details...but this whole thing has been playing out in the Pleiades, Aldebaran, Sirius, Mars, Atlantis, Lemuria, Babylon, Egypt, Rome, Jerusalem...and in the Roman Catholic Church...right from the beginning of this organization. If it hadn't been would've been another organization. This goes way deeper than corrupt men sitting around at the Vatican...dreaming up all manner of evil and atrocity for Planet Earth and the Human Race. It goes deep into Underground Reptilian Bases...I believe. A Draconian Reptilian may tell the Black Pope what to tell Pope Benedict. I think the top level Vatican hierarchy does exactly what they are told to do. That's just what I think. I don't really know...or have any inside information or proof. If I did...I probably wouldn't be safe on Pluto. Recently...I've been thinking that we are Prisoners of War on a Prison Planet with Grey Guards and a Reptilian Warden...and that the Reptilian Agenda for Earth is administered primarily through the City States (Vatican City, City of London, and Washington D.C.) and the United Nations. I tend to think that somehow we lost an ancient Human vs Reptilian war...and we are experiencing some sort of Payback Time. I'm speculating that the Universe is ruled by a Reptilian Universal Church Theocracy. My hope is that All Races will eventually embrace Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...which I think would be in everyone's best interest. I tend to agree with Jordan Maxwell...that we're pretty much $crewed. UNLESS...the Reptilians make an exception for this Solar System...and Theocratically Impose Human Sovereignty in this Solar System based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible the context of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of the context of the United Nations...and applied to the entire Solar System. This would have to be a top-down implementation. Anything else would probably be a blood-bath. This could serve as a test. The Reptilians might want to make this their modus operandi if the test is successful. Who knows?

    Your Comment: Did I say that ? That It started with the Vatican ? I did not...

    Hmmm - I don't much appreciate Baiting and I've seen alot of It lately around here.

    The Post was "Secrets of the Vatican" wasn't It ?

    I gave some. Simple...

    Again - Please do not Polarize My posts...
    Peace, Light, Love, Unity and Harmony.



    My Comment: I wasn't "baiting" or "polarizing your post". You indicated that the real trouble in the Roman Catholic Church started on June 29, 1963. I indicated that the real trouble started with the War in Heaven...and that the Roman Catholic Church is merely one more vehicle for implementing a dark agenda for Planet Earth and the Human Race. What about the Crusades and the Inquisition? What about the Dark Ages...and the mental anguish imposed upon countless millions of people throughout the centuries? What about the Nazi/Vatican relationship? You commented. I commented. You got mad. I won't trouble you further. I won't disturb your peace, light, love, unity, and harmony. I really don't like posting...and this is one more reason to stop. I don't get paid to do this. I was having a good day. Namaste?

    Could the pedophilia be somehow Interdimensional Reptilian related? Is there a Demonic Dimension to this whole mess? What about the disappearance of children? Could this somehow be related to the pedophilia situation? I think the clergy of all faiths get targeted by demonic forces. I think that anyone who tries to do the right thing gets targeted. I believe that unseen entities are watching me type this message. I often talk out loud to these entities...and thank God they don't talk back. Sometimes I flip them off...and swear at them! Didn't Martin Luther throw his ink well at them? I still want that Solar System Exorcism. I still want a completely reformed and purified Roman Catholic Church. If this doesn't happen...all efforts to uplift Humanity will be in vain. My dream of Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom will be dead in the water...and a non-starter. All I will have accomplished is to get myself on the Red List aka the Dead List. Better Dead Than Rep.

    The 'Law of Confusion' is a descriptive and appropriate term...but I tend to eschew obfuscation...and to espouse elucidation. A Christocentric eschatological theological approach to scriptural studies which utilizes the concept of comprehensive concentration...which assumes the red-letter teachings of Jesus as being fundamental...with the remaining portions of the biblical canon as being merely contextual...cross-referencing utilizing a Strong's Concordance...and applying the accepted norms of grammatical-historical supremely beneficial regarding definitively and devotionally ascertaining the Christ Conscious Aspects of the First Source and Center of All fully experience Jesus as Lord in modernity...being careful to exegete...rather than eisegetically twisting and corrupting the sacred texts to conform to canon law (there is no substantial body of evidence which substantiates transubstantiation) as not to become a reprehensible and reprobate hermeneutic whore...a cursed Judas Iscariot in dire need of prostrate penetance, confession, repentance, and reconciliation...and in grave danger of burning for all eternity as a sinner in the hands of an angry God. World Without End. Amen.

    What Would Rudolph Bultmann Say?
    What Would Jonathan Edwards Say?
    What Would Edward Shillebeeckx Say?
    What Would Pat Condell Say?
    What Would SaLuSa Say?

    Don't take anything I write too seriously. I'm just sort of thrashing around...spewing all manner of speculation and smart-@$$ comments. I really mean no harm. I guess I'm trying to get everyone to think in unconventional ways. I don't have the answers...only questions and suggestions. I'm not an authority on anything. My last comment was pretty much accurate...but I hammed it up a lot. I didn't really mean the last part of it...but I just couldn't resist. Please...nobody should take that personally. I am Not 'I AM'! I am not even ex-cathedra! I am, I am, I am, I am...I am deluded...yes I am! And so is Elizabeth Claire Profit!!!

    I can't imagine how difficult it is to administer the Roman Catholic Church. The internal and external politics must be a real pain. Everything they say and do...can and will be used against them. I speculate that they have malevolent non-humans...above and below them...telling them what to do...with the angry and rebellious masses to the right and left of them...their trusting flock in front of them...and a closet full of skeletons behind them. What fun!

    I loved visiting numerous RC churches and cathedrals. I loved visiting Florence and the Vatican. I did not...however...enjoy visiting the Colosseum...which is just down the street from the Vatican. It's the Colosseum and Demonic parts that trouble me very, very deeply. Now about that Solar System Exorcism.

    I'd love to hang out in lots of good Italian food in the gastronomic capital of Italy...drink a bottle of fine wine with Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer...and spend some quality time at the Ferrari factory. Someone told me that the Pope has the 400th Enzo Ferrari! I actually asked a Ferrari representative about this...and they just smiled. I'd also like to camp out at Monza...and watch the Ferraris and beautiful women...while arguing the fine points of theology and cosmology with a renegade Jesuit! Then...I'd like to go back to Sorrento...and watch a beautiful sunset over the Bay of Naples.

    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Posts : 7957
    Join date : 2010-09-28

    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:11 am

    Once again, I'm probably talking to no more than a dozen people (and other than people) who are paid or tasked with keeping an eye on me. I think I might be someone of reincarnational significance -- but I wish that I weren't -- and my previous lives are probably screwing-up this life. I get the feeling that those in the know are making damn sure that I NEVER gain any traction. Perhaps the only reason I'm still alive is that I make a completely ignorant fool out of myself -- each and every day -- and this destroys any chances of me doing anything of value or significance -- and probably dooms me to eternal oblivion -- or worse. BTW -- Fool-Rule would consist of nothing more than a continuation of this thread in perpetuity -- in the conext of that 600 square-foot office-apartment in a Deep Subsurface Base somewhere in the solar system -- probably in Colorado, Nevada, Virginia, New York, London, Rome, or the Moon. If that were indeed to occur -- the depression and despair incurred would probably be overwhelming.

    Things seemed to really change at Project Avalon about the time that I started the 'Amen Ra' thread. That was a very interesting thread -- and resulted in a rather high number of views -- which continues to grow. Soon afterward, abraxasinas swept into town with a high volume of strange yet intellectual posting. That's when things really seemed to start falling apart. I am still haunted by my 'demand' on that thread for a Solar System Exorcism and the implementation of a United States of the Solar System. Right about that time things really went sour -- and the abraxasinas Q&A was shut down -- and a lot of members seemed to go sort of nuts. Richard and his wife were nasty and high-handed -- and that was pretty much the end of the original Project Avalon. Right about that time, I had my first UFO sighting -- which sure looked like a group of UFO's blowing-up some sort of a larger space-ship. That's what it looked like to me -- and it scared the hell out of me. My encounter with someone claiming to be an Ancient Egyptian Deity (who I won't name) seemed to be related to all of the above -- and occurred just a few months after Project Avalon shut-down. My participation in the Crystal Cathedral, many years previously, seemed to have something to do with this -- as seemingly unrelated as that is. Anyway, I once again wish for a combination of the original Project Avalon (without the drama) and The Mists of Avalon (with more members).

    Something seems to have been very wrong during all of the above -- and things seem to be worse presently -- as people seem to be subjected to an information and disinformation overload. My research and speculation has been most upsetting and destructive in my life -- and if even half of what I think might be true actually is true -- the general-public will probably not be nearly as patient and restrained as I have been. I get the feeling that the Galactic Powers That Be are not pleased with what is transpiring within this solar system. Things seem to be approaching a critical stage -- and I suspect that things might get rather nasty for a couple of decades (or longer). I've tried to deal with a lot of upsetting and disruptive issues -- and I wish that I hadn't. It takes a helluva lot of work, pain, and suffering -- to accomplish absolutely nothing. I wonder if the Powers That Be (Human and Otherwise) have some sort of a highly-secure internet-forum (by invitation only)??? Wouldn't THAT be fun??!! OR -- it might not be fun at all. A completely frank and honest debate on such a hypothetical forum might drive most of us insane. The more I think about this madness -- the less I post what I really think. I sure hope the PTB can't read my mind. BTW -- I wonder what would happen if they reopened the original Project Avalon forum??!! What are the chances of that happening??!!

    I get the impression that if everything were made new and perfect on Planet Earth -- there would still be a helluva lot of complaining and dissatisfaction. I get the sinking feeling that if everything I have conceptualized regarding a United States of the Solar System were completely implemented -- and if I lived in a Deep Subsurface Lunar Base -- I would still be unhappy and upset -- along with everyone else. I'm thinking that Robert H. Schuller made some very valid points throughout his ministry -- but that the Crystal Cathedral concept needs to be exhaustively studied and refined. 1. 2. 3. Perhaps Positive-Reinforcement should be applied to the Way Things Are. I've opened a bunch of cans of worms within this website -- but I'm thinking that I should give my divisive and upsetting work the Crystal Cathedral Treatment. The research and structure behind the Crystal Cathedral should NOT be underestimated. One MUST deeply research prior to applying a Happy-Clappy finishing touch. Again, this is Positive Reinforcement AFTER studying all of the problems and perplexities. I found that playing Loma Linda Seventh-day Adventism off of the Crystal Cathedral was MOST enlightening. And it must always be remembered that Arvella Schuller basically ran the Crystal Cathedral. (I got that from a genuine insider) BTW -- a most interesting individual suggested to me that there was a demonic component to the Crystal Cathedral ministry -- and that's all I'm gonna say.

    Anyway, this is the best of times -- and the worst of times. I mostly worry about the Wrath of God -- and Weapons of Mass Destruction. I'm NOT happy with Earth and Humanity -- but I don't think the world should be destroyed -- and sinners damned to hell. Why can't we have a PROPER System of Rewards and Punishments -- which applies to the entire solar system?? I just watched Constantine -- and I was frustrated by the lack of real theological discussion -- and the presence of endless violence and gore. 1. 2. 3. This is what I HATE about Hollywood. But really -- I think whoever rules us understands what sells, and what maximizes the bottom-line. I really think that an idealistic archangel set this world up really nicely -- and then everything went to hell -- and got taken over by one or two archangels who were (and are) MUCH Tougher than the first one. Perhaps humanity requires Bad@ss Rulers -- rather than a Kinder and Gentler Deity who doesn't get-off on RULING with an IRON-FIST. Perhaps we have had -- and have -- EXACTLY what we deserve. “For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.” -- John Greenleaf Whittier

    It's becoming a pattern with me. I like to watch(or listen to) groupings of longer videos and recordings regarding a particular subject. This thread is regarding who we are...or supposedly are. I'm very confused and conflicted concerning this very basic subject. We live in a very strange universe. Nothing is neat and tidy.

    I guess there is security and solace in being part of a group...even a really screwed-up group. We're all in this takes all kinds...and the show must go on. But why?

    How do I know that I'm not an alien or a hybrid? Are we all completely human? Are some of us completely reptilian? Do all of us have reptilian components in our DNA? Were we created? By whom? Anunaki? Draconians? Pleiadians? Orions? Does the Divine One live on Nibiru? Who created them? Did we evolve? Here...or somewhere else? Did human life begin here...or was Earth colonized? How old is my soul(if I have a soul)? Will my soul really exist forever? If not...what's the point? Did I live in Atlantis? Did I live in Lemuria? Am I a good person or a bad person? I keep getting a sinking feeling that I am merely a Base 4 Mutation. I wanted to be more...a lot more.

    A slimy amoeba in the deep blue sea was the great grand-dad of you and me.
    Then I was a monkey swinging in a tree.
    Now I'm a teacher...I've got my PhD.
    See what science has done for me?

    Thank-you mudra...I appreciate your comment. My problem is that my mind is still...too much of the time. I have to work at making my mind work. I'm looking for truth...not tranquility.

    Did my soul exist 1,000,000,000 years ago? Will it exist 1,000,000,000 years from now? If so...will my memories survive? If not...what is the meaning of this? We're supposed to be I must be a God with Alzheimers.

    Knowing who we are...where we came from...what we are supposed to be doing...and where we are going...may be necessary to get ourselves out of this mess. Someone...or something...seems to be keeping us in the dark...regarding all of the above. Keep asking questions. Keep knocking the damn doors down.

    The gods of this world(Draconian and Anunaki?) are not the God of the Universe. Unfortunately...I think that we are dealing with the gods of this world...and that they are not very nice. So...we have a big problem. I'd like to see the gods of this world least for awhile...and let us sort this thing out for ourselves. We will probably make lots of mistakes...but they will be our mistakes...and we will learn from these mistakes...and become better and better...every day and in every way. At some point...we may be able to interact with our former gods in a constructive manner...when they have matured...and we have matured. This may take thousands of years. These gods have given us much...but they have robbed us of so very much more. I don't hate them...even if they hate us. I don't want them to be hurt or killed. I don't want them to go away mad. I just want them to go away. Sorry Lucifer. Of all the words that tongue can tell...the saddest are 'It might have been.'

    I'm starting to get really worried. The numbers of people participating in the forum are not what they should be...given the troubled and confused times we are living in. There is a tremendous amount of new information out there...and the public needs to sort through this material in a calm and rational manner. I like Alex Jones...but that's not my style. I like this forum format...but I am not seeing the type of discussion...both in interest levels and numbers...that I would like to see.

    Tell me who I am. But also tell me what is going on in alternative thinking. I know very little about these subjects...which is why I ask a lot of questions. I'm just seeing a lot of dots not being connected...that need to be get us out of this mess.

    This is probably the most fascinating thread I have started so far(less than a dozen, I'm sure). Understanding our real history...going back billions of years probably the key to the present and future. Now I'm talking about the cutting edge history that we were not taught about in school. There is a whole world opening up to our understanding which is changing everything. Tell me what you think about all of this.
    Good to see you posting, Susan! Don't forget about us!

    Thank-you for your thoughtful response, Lorien.

    Did the God of the Universe create us in a single 24 hour period...6,000 years ago? Did we evolve from lower primates? Did the Anunnaki create us by combining their DNA with hominid be good, obedient slaves? Were we created somewhere else...and then seeded here to colonize Earth? Were we chased here in a Star Wars? Did the Anunnaki defeat us...and then genetically modify dumb us make us good, obedient slaves? Are we still good, obedient slaves? Can we be spiritually and genetically modified to regain our former glory? Are we in the middle of a universal Star Wars to decide who gets to be Almighty God and Masters of the Universe? Are we fighting to decide who gets to be the Master Race and God's Chosen People? Are the Reptilians playing 'God'? Why isn't freewill tempered with responsibility? Will all malevolent beings(human and non-human) be exorcised from Earth soon? Is 2012 Judgment determine who gets to control the stargates? Are we capable of ruling ourselves? Are we better off being ruled by Reptilians? Is Lucifer a Reptilian? Do we really have to play these stupid wargames? Why can't we learn to share and play nice? Can't we just get along? Was that 20 questions?

    I've been crazy for a long I don't have to worry about going crazy. That frees me up to ask the unanswerable questions...and to expect convincing answers.

    When I have considered all of the possibilities...and compared them exhaustively...and received a divine sign. Seriously...we don't know everything about everything. We don't know everything about anything. Everything is related to everything. So...we have to know everything about know everything about anything. Are you convinced?

    Susan, thank-you for your wisdom and enthusiasm! Did we get the internet from benevolent ETs? Which ones? I thought that Al Gore invented the internet? Is AL an ET? Is Al a high ranking member of Giza Intelligence aka the renegade Pleiadians who helped Hitler until 1941(unconfirmed) and were supposedly removed from Earth in the late 1970's by the Pleiadians? Did Earth receive anti-gravity, free-energy, time-travel, nuclear weapons, integrated circuits, etc. from the same ETs...or have we received technology from more than one group of ETs? We are quickly becoming a global community...who will probably be much less likely to kill each other. We are forming a responsibly free global community...and not the tyrannical New World Order envisioned by the malevolent ETs. Will they try to use extermination and enslavement to control us? Do we threaten their reign of terror throughout the universe? Do the Pleiadians want to control us as much as the Draconians or Anunnaki? Are we the loose cannons of the universe? Is this all about Freedom vs Tyranny? Oh...never mind...just tell me who I am.

    Thank-you for your detailed and reasonable responses.

    In a sense...I don't care who I long as I live forever(in some way, shape, or form)...remember all of my past-lives(if necessary)...and stay out of war, enslavement, and extreme suffering. It wouldn't surprise me if I was a spiritual and physical mongrel...and had been involved in unbelievable achievements and utter depravity. I would simply like to see the universe become a friendly place where all war and atrocity would cease to exist forever. Life should be enjoyed...not endured. I would be happy to live in a neighborhood of Reptilians, Greys, Pleiadians, etc, long as they didn't hurt or kill me...and respected my privacy and personal freedom. I'm thinking that all races have been horrible...and done terrible things to each other. I'm thinking that even God has been a Devil. I see the universe as being one big mess. We need to clean it up...without hurting or killing anyone.

    mudra, I enjoyed listening to Tolle. Thank-you. I will listen to more after I get some rest. Taking the focus off of self is a good thing...and both self exaltation and self degradation...will sink us. They are two sides of the same stupid self-centered coin.

    Once more...please take a look at the links in the first post. I've added a couple more links. I'm finding a benefit from listening to/watching these. I'm also finding that I need to listen to/view them several times for the information to really sink in. There is so much new(for me) information. Again...I can't vouch for the accuracy and truth of these...but they seem to be going in the right general direction. I'm interested in hearing both positive and negative responses. I don't believe everything...but they seem to resonate with me.

    This is just a renewed invitation to consider the videos in the first a group. I'm considering this to be a step in the right direction...rather than the gospel truth.

    I am not blessed with exotic memories and experiences. My life is quite bland. This thread is probably a case of the bland leading the bland...who knows where? I'm not the slave of any source. I am very fickle. I try to consider as many sources as possible...and often these sources conflict with each other in profound ways. I try to look for commonalities. Are the sources in the first post credible...or have they been exposed as charlitans or frauds?

    I'm leaning toward the theory that us Earthlings are renegade Pleiadians from Aldebaran who sided with kicked out of Heaven (Pleiades)...fought a civil war with our brothers and sisters...both collaborated with, and fought against, the Dracs...traveled to Sirius...and ended up on Earth in ancient Atlantis. Are we 'fallen angels'? If this is wonder we have so many issues! Reality check: Is this true...or could it possibly be true?

    I think I may have been in a class where David Koresh was a visitor. I am also aware of some of the prophetic and political issues which swirled around this group. I am very fearful that this sort of thing(massacre) could happen again...with any number of groups or individuals. This is a very scary phenomenon. And very, very sad.

    Thank-you for the responses. It's hard to get properly informed...and remain in a balanced frame of mind. We are busy. We are distracted. We are frazzled. And facing the truth about anything can require a lot of work and pain. As I started listening to people like Bill Cooper...I realized that many people who seemed to be upset with the government...were almost more upset with the general public. I don't have an answer...but I think that forums such as this one are a huge step in the right direction.

    I like the idea of reviewing recent history...where the dust has settled...books have been written...documentaries have been made...and some of the major players are now retired...and are willing to open up a bit. Irrationality flourishes in the heat of battle. Hindsight is 20/20...or it should be.

    I keep thinking that the whole thing right for everyone...from Lucifer to the kindergarten get informed without getting mad. There needs to be a global rethinking of EVERYTHING. We need to consider everything...from all angles...all the time. I know that's impossible...but it's a worthy goal. People need to start getting PhD's in subjects such as RESPONSIBILITY, LIFE, THE UNIVERSE, AND EVERYTHING...instead of ENTOMOLOGY. No offense...but that really bugs me.

    Thank you Unified Serenity. The internet is changing everything. The alternative media...combined with people from around the world...chatting with each other online may save us...if we can keep the internet from being heavily censored or shut down completely.

    I thought I understood Waco...but this documentary brought out details that I hadn't noticed. I just thought it was worth encouraging people to do some more thinking about Waco...especially in light of what has happened since 9/11. Perhaps completely understanding one event can help us to properly understand previous and subsequent events. A lot of these horrific events seem to have eerie similarities. The repeated cover-ups, ommission of pertinent facts, slanted and one-sided lines of reasoning and questioning, blatent lies, etc, etc...are very troubling to me. Something is very, very wrong. This goes for most of our wars, assasinations, economic disasters, scandals, terrorist events, etc...throughout U.S. history.

    Who, EXACTLY, is trying to destroy us...and Constitutional Responsible Freedom? Who do you think is responsible...Lucifer? When we find out who it is...what should we do about it...Lucifer? What future atrocities might they have planned for us...Lucifer? As the God of This World...perhaps you should bring them to justice...Lucifer. You are meticulously legalistic...aren't you...Lucifer? How about making a public answer these, and other, questions...Lucifer? How about a one hour interview on 60 Minutes...with no commercials...Lucifer? It's time for disclosure...Lucifer. You are obligated to show yourself to the whole world.

    I watched the video again today. What a nightmare! If they wanted to simply deal with the gun situation...they could have secured a search warrant...and arrived without an army...and politely examined the guns...and calmly dealt with any illegalities and tax issues. The authorities seemed to really want a fight. The whole thing was a horrible mess...and terribly mishandled. This was NOT another Jonestown. This seemed to be a group of rugged individualists with peculiar(but not dangerous) religious views...and some moral irregularities(which were already being addressed). The authorities seemed to want to make a bloody and burnt example out of them. Was this a trial run for the religous persecution and extermination which many fear will accompany the establishment of the New World Order? Was this a burnt offering to Lucifer? Some have suggested that 9/11 was such a sacrifice. I don't know.

    The FLIR footage of machine guns being fired into the burning building was diabolical to the nth degree. These poor people...including women and children couldn't escape death at this point (in most cases, I suspect) even if they really wanted to. This is something which one might expect the Nazis to have done in WWII.

    I'm still strongly leaning toward basing the United Nations on the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. This would be the right way to do globalism. I have a high resolution photo of the U.N. Security Council as the background on my computer. To me...the Security Council should report to the General Assembly...which should have the ultimate power in the U.N. Check out the U.N. website. The existing globalist plans seem to be dreamed up by malevolent aliens. There is some evidence for this. Right...Lucifer?

    That's funny Unified Serenity! I don't think Lucifer would give me the time of day...let alone answer my questions. But, you know, I don't remember my who knows what goes on when I sleep? I seem to wake up more tired than when I went to sleep. Ignorance is bliss sometimes! My 'questions' are simply a unique way of addressing a subject which doesn't get talked about a lot. I keep thinking that those who monitor this site might be able to pass something relevant on to those who are on the inside of what I suspect is a very, very dark predicament for humanity. I'm really glad that I'm not an insider. I'm miserable enough, as it is!

    Despite everything...I think that the Branch Dividians should not have fired one shot...even if the ATF shot first. They should have run for cover...called 911...and arranged to peacefully surrender to the authorities almost immediately. Then they could have fought it out in court. You may have the right of way on the highway...but if you see an accident in the need to put on the brakes and turn the steering avoid a disaster. Exercising freedom of speech and religion, and the right to keep and bear arms, was constitutionally guaranteed...but engaging in an armed confrontation with the authorities was a very bad idea.

    Regarding the Delta Force soldiers entering the compound after it was supersaturated with CS gas...I hadn't heard this before...and, if true, this whole thing was even more diabolical than I thought. I just keep asking myself 'who was giving Bill Clinton and Janet Reno orders?' This certainly was not dreamed up by the FBI and ATF people in Waco...or maybe not even in Washington D.C. Were orders being given from a Deep Underground Military Base...or the Dark Side of the Moon? Why is there a black helicopter circling my house...and a shapeshifting Delta Force soldier pounding on my front door? He's yelling that he's here to help me. Oh God! The helicopter just morphed into a UFO! I'M SO SOL!!

    Thank-you deb003. It seems that the bright lights are being turned on...and the bad-guys are being exposed...and examined by a lot of microscopes. They need secrecy...and that secrecy is disappearing. When this madness is resolved...I think things will be a lot better...even for the bad-guys. In a sense...we need to save them from themselves and from the demonic forces which hover over them and possess them.

    Unified Serenity: Your last post was very interesting. A lot of us are spineless wonders. We're not particularly evil...just clueless and gutless...and I'm speaking for myself. I think bribing and blackmail is rampant. Getting informed without getting mad(or going crazy) keeps rising to the top of my list of things which could save the world. A cold infowar...if you will. I continue to think that our ultimate enemies are not human. We'd goof things up on our own...but not this bad. If we got rid of the malevolent aliens(and humans) by placing all the mothers on a mothership...we would still have massive problems...but I think things would gradually improve. But it still might take centuries to reach Nirvana.

    Thank-you happyhollergal. I don't really blame the media. They give us what we want...and what the aliens want us to get! Again...the internet is changing everything. If the mainstream media broadcast what we view and talk about on this forum...the results might be disasterous. There is a time and place for everything. I'm really trying to be on everyone's side...rather than taking sides.

    mntruthseeker: Thank-you for watching. Misery loves company! Seriously...this documentary was very informative in many ways. It wasn't just an angry, slanted attack against the government. It was very damaging...but it presented the information in a calm, fair, and rational manner. The interviews, hearings, and footage at the compound, were very revealing. The passage of time makes it easier to properly evaluate this sad chapter in American history. My intention was not to make anyone angry. I just want us all to learn from this that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

    What amazed me was how the politicians, spokespersons, and press clearly and vigorously misrepresented the true facts of the case. If someone is skillful and determined...they can make black appear to be white. What do you suppose was the true underlying motivating force in this horrible situation?

    I wish that this horror was caused just by a bunch of out of control locals...but it sounded like this thing was controlled from Washington D.C. But was the Clinton Administration being told what to do? Just asking. No proof. Again...I'm interested in calm and rational retrospective possibly prevent future horrific events. We need to keep refining our society...every day...and in every way.

    Evolutionary change is much better than revolutionary change. I suspect that the lack of evolutionary change...with all deliberate speed...leads to revolutionary change. I continue to lean toward the infowar model. Once people start running in the streets...rational thought seems to come to a screeching halt. A latter-day rennaisance will bring peace to the world.

    Unified Serenity: Do you have a radio show? If it on the internet?

    To keep things fair and is an anti-Bielek link: I'm simply trying to sample a wide variety of information...and look for reasonable commonalities. I don't know what to believe or disbelieve. Relentless pursuit of the truth is probably a good thing...but it does take a lot of time and energy! Most of us don't have either of these in massive doses! Presenting various possibilities in a public forum is a good way to find out what people know and think. Initial confusion often leads to eventual clarity. But when we arrive at the top of the paradigm...we might not like the view!

    From notes found on Google video: Al Bielek has lead a life most would not choose to live. While many would think that time travel, meeting aliens, and working on secret projects are exciting ventures, Al paid a big price for the privilege. Because those who set the agenda wish to keep their activities secret, Al was robbed of his family, his memories, and ultimately, his identity. They used advanced technologies to erase what was dear to him. However, their technologies are not perfect. Slowly, the memories came back. Al started meeting others who had been through the same process. Ultimately, a flood of memories returned. Al gives the most comprehensive account of his life ever recorded. It will shock and disturb most people to learn what is really going on in this planet. But Al has come to the conclusion that the truth needs to be published. For over ten years, Al has been featured on Radio Talk Shows and as a speaker in many conferences. His story has captivated the attention of tens of thousands of people worldwide. Many will question why Al hasn't been silenced. Perhaps, those who set the agenda are allowing brief glimpses of the truth to emerge. Perhaps it is something much bigger.

    My comment: Perhaps this is why disclosure is so slow in coming. If one aspect of disclosure is officially revealed...there may be more questions than answers. This could set off a chain-reaction similar to the detonation of a nuclear device...which could devastate human(and alien?) civilization. Gradual and unofficial disclosure may be the only way to save the world...without destroying the world. Get informed without getting mad...or going crazy. My guess is that the PTB are scared many more ways than one. We may need to help the PTB to defuse this information time-bomb. Despite their access to the underground bases...they may be in deeper do-do than we are...and that's some pretty deep snake-s***!

    Did I understand Phillip Corso, Jr. to say that his father was in charge of Project Paperclip? If so...this would put him directly in charge of Nazis. Is Roswell directly related to Project Paperclip? Did I understand correctly from Phillip Corso, Jr. that his father released critical information contrary to the wishes of JFK? He also said that his father denied that Area 51 existed...if I'm not mistaken. He also said to look closely at the agencies which answer to no one...and that Steven Greer was looking in the wrong places...and for the wrong reasons. Should we be looking for Nazis and Deep Underground Military Bases for 'Disclosure'? Where did I hear that Jessie Marcel's specialty was disinformation? Was it Stanton Friedman? Stewart Swerdlow says that Roswell was a staged event. This view is also depicted in the Orion Conspiracy. Was Muroc(Edwards) 1954 a staged event? Was Ike deceived into abdicating the presidency? Is mind control and time travel a spiritual and perceptual phenomenon of illusion, smoke and mirrors? Is some of our 'modern' science really a potpourri of malevolent alien deceptions? One thing I found interesting in the Bielek recording...was that renegade Alderbaran Pleiadians helped Hitler...and wanted him to treat the Jews kindly...and that they abandoned Hitler in 1941. If this is true...did the reptilians and greys become the new power behind Hitler? Could this explain the contrast between the mostly upbeat and progressive Nazi Germany in the 30's...and the unspeakable horrors of the 40's? I found this scathing critique of 'The Day After Roswell':

    Phil Corso relates to Al Bielek because of the Philadelphia Experiment and time travel. I noticed that Philip Corso, Jr. made the following points:

    1. That his father claimed that he saw alien bodies...and that they were basically robots with two separate brains...and used for space travel...because humans cannot travel beyond our moon without dying.
    2. That his father confiscated his personal ufo photographs...and lied about their whereabouts.
    3. That his father had a clearance for 9 levels above top secret.
    4. That his father seemed to be in too many places and involved in too many an almost miraculous manner.
    5. That his father was in charge of the Nazis in Project Paperclip until he left the military.
    6. That his father released sensitive information contrary to the wishes of JFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
    7. That his father worked with several Presidents...and that only Eisenhower and Reagan really knew the truth about Roswell(what about Bush 1?).
    8. That his father wrote a book titled 'Dawn of a New Age'. Publication uncertain.
    9. That his father + 30 generals knew the truth about Roswell.
    10. That his father was educated in England at Cambridge regarding Intelligence...and taught American Intelligence Officers what he learned there.
    11. That 'The Day After Roswell' was not planned to be written...and was written in a hurry.
    12. That his father had a massive collection of scientific papers regarding UFOs and Roswell...which included information about time travel.
    13. That he has tried to release these papers on the internet...but that the site was shut down within 2 weeks.
    14. That he has been told by high US government officials what not to say.
    15. That he was told not to talk about the JFK assassination...and that he had agreed not to.
    16. That his father was on a committee which investigated the findings of the Warren Commission...and that conspiracy theorists are on the wrong track.
    17. That UFOs are time travel machines...and operate simultaneously in several dimensions.
    18. That time travel(if it is real, he said) is why alien and UFO disclosure has not occurred.
    19. That, as of 2004, Steven Greer was looking in the wrong places...and for the wrong reasons.
    20. That he had refused to release his father's papers to Greer...but would consider doing so in the future.
    21. That UFO researchers should investigate the groups who answer to no one...and that they needed to know where to look.
    22. That most of our modern technology was derived from Roswell...and released between 1960-1963...and that subsequent technological developments have been based on that orginal release of technological information. (It is interesting to note that this period coincides with the Kennedy administration)
    23. That his father was a contactee.
    24. That he(Jr.) feared for his life.

    Thank-you. Richard Hoagland says 'Google is your friend'.

    Could time travel mostly be holographic projections of recorded past events...and future extrapolations which are converted into holographic projections? Is time travel really perceptual rather than actual? Bill Cooper speaks of the 'aliens' Muroc in 1954...displaying a holographic projection of the Crucifixion of Christ. Note what appears to be holograms in the following: YouTube - The Temptation of Jesus by the Devil in the Wilderness Will a staged Second Coming of Christ be a holographic projection...featuring a fake Jesus? Is there a holographic projection technology in which portions of the projection can actually become physical? Some say that this whole world...including you and a holographic projection. John Lear seems to know a lot about holograms. Were there no planes? Was 9/11 an Inside the Earth Job? Is all of this interrelated?

    Is the interrelationship between physical/mental/spiritual/multidimensional/holographic/past/present/future the truth which cannot be revealed? Is everything an illusion? Nothing is real? Nothing to get hung-up about? Strawberry fields forever? Life 'tis but a dream? Are we merely holographic actors on a multidimensional stage? Are we merely reruns of what has already occurred? Or are we holograms of what will occur? I believe that I'll have another drink...

    I still wonder if a lot of the whistleblowing information is coming from Philadelphia Experiment and Montauk Project refugees...who weren't suposed to survive...or weren't supposed to remember. One may have to go through the horrors of these really understand what the hell...or what from really going on.

    Do not be alarmed! This comment does not exist. It's only a hologram! Go back to your homes! Everything is under the holographic projector behind the curtain...who just so happens to be...a hologram named Lucifer.

    Thank-you for your responses and links, Carol.

    I'm just trying to save this thread from a premature demise. There really is a lot of good information here. Perhaps you all have seen these lecture videos before. Perhaps some of you were at the conference. This is all new to me. Tell me what you think.

    If this is old news for you...what is your verdict? What is your opinion regarding what Stanton Friedman said regarding Bob Lazar? What did Philip Corso, Jr. say was the reason why disclosure has not occurred? Do you agree...or disagree? Just testing your knowledge. I hadn't heard either perspective until last week.

    I think that it is good to ascertain which speakers and information can stand the test of time and scrutiny. If we simply consider the latest and most sensational information...does anyone notice when what someone said...that sounded so good at the time...later turns out to be utter BS?

    When there are no responses...threads quickly disappear...never to be seen again.

    I found this to be a very interesting and informative interview. Alex talks with Kevin Trudeau, the infomercial marketer ordered by a federal judge to pay more than $37 million for violating a 2004 stipulated order by allegedly misrepresenting the content of his book, The Weight Loss Cure They Dont Want You to Know About.


    Please listen to all 7 parts of this interview. It contains constructive insights into the thinking of the elites. I had the thought that if we all considered ourselves to be elites...and thought about how to run the world...we would, in essence, put ourselves into their secret meetings and yachts...rather than being on the outside...looking in. I know this is a bit of a stretch...but we can't think of ourselves as peasants with pitchforks. We need to think on their level...but without the delusion and corruption. The elites are not planning on running in the streets...and neither should we. (completely removed from the internet) contains some ideas which I tend to gravitate toward. It's quite different than anything else I have encountered. View this material in the next few posts. Take it or leave it. It may be one more piece of a very complex and confusing puzzle. The question is -- why was this website and web-address completely removed from the internet?? I was paid-up for several years -- yet someone else ended up owning the address and site -- and then it was completely removed. I'd like to know what REALLY was going on here?! I was afraid to investigate. I just let it go. I tend to think that as a genuinely ethical and enlightened political and theological spirituality continues to decline -- the police state will become stronger and stronger. Is it possible to Legislate Responsibility?? Isn't THAT a can of worms??!!

    More Sherry Shriner!! Remember to consider anything I post -- in the context of everything I post. Try listening to one show after another (in the BlogTalk Radio section). Just let them play. I don't endorse this show -- but I think that it conditions one to deal with a lot of strange material and events. At this point, I'm not out to kill aliens -- and I don't know if orgone works, or not -- so I have never used orgone. I'm also curious as to why Sherry never spends much time teaching the Red-Letter Teachings in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These teachings seem to contain the best aspects of the entire Bible -- without most of the bad aspects -- although I remained troubled and perplexed by the Hard Sayings of Jesus (Yeshua?). Once again, I tend to like whoever wrote the Bible -- yet I remain troubled by a lot of what they wrote. Perhaps the Bible wasn't written to make us happy. Perhaps it was written to teach us a lesson -- in many more ways than one. Life is wonderful -- yet there is something very dark about our existence and history. I still don't have this figured out -- but I think this thread hints at a lot of what MIGHT really be going on in this solar system -- and a lot of it is NOT nice -- not nice at all. The Horror.

    Do they have Drac-Only Clubs and Cafeterias in Deep Underground Military Bases?? What about Grey-Bars?? What would it REALLY be like to live in a DUMB?? My guess is that it might suck -- once the novelty wore off. I keep thinking that the Hidden Core of Solar System Governance might be worse than we can imagine. I've joked about being closer to the center of things -- but this might not make me happy. It would probably do just the opposite. I'm not saying I don't want to do this sort of thing at some point. I'm just saying that the problems one might be exposed to might be very difficult to deal with. I swear that I imagine spending 99% of my DUMB-TIME in that 600 square-foot office-apartment doing exactly what I'm doing right now -- but on a Cray Supercomputer -- with access to all of the good-stuff and the bad-stuff throughout the solar system (and possibly beyond). I'd probably eat in the military cafeteria with the Nazis, Masons, Jesuits, Mormons, Agents, Dracs, and Greys. We might even play cards!! What if the Dracs are sore-losers?! They might eat the winner!!

    I will continue to model the concept that Michael got trampled and demoted in antiquity -- and that Gabriel and Lucifer have been running the show in this solar system ever since. I have very mixed-feelings about humanity. There is much to be VERY proud of -- and much to be VERY ashamed of. I continue to speculate that humanity was (and is) an experiment with very mixed results. If Gabriel and Lucifer have been in charge -- I suspect the best and the worst. What if humanity is ultimately unmanageable?? What if attempting to manage humanity corrupts the managers absolutely?? What if Heaven is the Impossible Dream for Humanity?? What if human physicality unleashed some of the darker aspects of the hypothetical interdimensional reptilian soul??? Remember, in Earth: Final Conflict when Zo'or inhabits a Female Atavus Body -- and goes nuts?? What if that sort of thing occurred in the Garden of Eden?? What if the Galactic Powers That Be attempted to terminate the Human-Experiment once and for all?? I suspect massive power struggles within this solar system -- going back thousands, millions, or even billions or years. The lies we've been told were probably necessary for both good and bad reasons. I simply wish to take the next best steps for ALL Concerned. On the other hand -- without the WHOLE Story -- it is impossible to know what steps to take -- and what steps not to take. The PTB continue to keep me in the dark. One mysterious individual seemed to indicate that order and mystery were good things. They seemed to like Anna in 'V'. When I expressed that I liked the good aspects of Anna and the Visitors -- they agreed.

    What would it be like to attend a Board-Meeting of Solar Systems Unlimited (on Nibiru?)? You know -- a dozen System-Lords reporting to the CEO of Solar Systems Unlimited. Imagine reading the Tithe-Revenue Reports, the Tax-Revenue Reports, the Illegal-Drug Revenue Reports, the War-Revenue Reports, the Corporate-Revenue Reports, etc, etc, etc. I have NO idea if this is the way things work -- but it's something worth considering. Is Honesty the Best Policy -- or is Deception a Necessary Evil?? Do White-Lies constitute Ethical-Deception??

    I really, really wonder about the reincarnational-administration within this solar system!! Do billionaire-elites reincarnate as starving children in Chad??!! That wouldn't surprise me one little bit. What if the Top One-Percent Reincarnated as the Bottom One-Percent -- lifetime after lifetime after lifetime??!! So far, the concept of reincarnation has been the biggest can of worms I've had to deal with. It scares the hell out of me -- each and every day. Archangelic-Reincarnation is what REALLY interests me!!! I truly believe there is a meticulous record of ALL of our incarnations -- going back thousands, millions, billions, and possibly even trillions of years. Ever heard of the WATCHERS?? Guess what they do??!!

    Seriously, in preparation for my next incarnation (since this one has been a complete waste of time and energy), should I study Star Wars (the real kind) and Intergalactic Banking?? Should I attempt to program myself to be a Brave New Bad@ss?? Whatever I did and didn't do in this incarnation seems to have been worse than a complete failure. I am a Mysterious-Blend of Incurable-Optimisim and Unyielding-Despair. Perhaps Making Things Better would Make Things Worse. Put THAT in your water-pipe and smoke it!! Neither Humanity or Divinity seems to want me. Perhaps it's time for me to leave. I don't wish to remain where I am not wanted or needed. Is there some place in the universe where I might be needed and wanted?? If not -- perhaps it is time for me to cease to exist -- and to be as if I had not been. Perhaps I should reverse every effort I have made within this thread to 'make things better'. This might be better for everyone. You all know better anyway -- just like in the Garden of Eden. Namaste -- or Whatever.

    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:25 pm; edited 5 times in total

    Posts : 7957
    Join date : 2010-09-28

    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:38 pm

    Are the Military-Industrial Complex -- the Medical-Industrial Complex -- the Secret Space Program -- the Underground Bases -- the Secret Government -- and the Kingdom of God -- Inextricably Linked -- in Good-Ways and Bad-Ways???? Are the New World Order Cabal and the New Age Alien Agenda really Two Sides of the Same Coin??? Is there a Good-Side and a Bad-Side to BOTH of them??? I'm going to venture a very tentative 'YES' to all of the above. Perhaps we should Positively-Reinforce all of the above. I'm going to repeat that I think the Hidden Solar System History is extremely nasty -- and that the Old Testament Violence is reflective of this nasty past. I think there's a helluva lot they didn't teach us in Sabbath-School and Sunday-School.

    While I'm on the subject -- I tend to mirror Dr. Walter Martin regarding Saturday v Sunday -- in that no particular day should be considered exclusively holy -- especially in modernity. I have no concrete information regarding how I treated this subject in previous incarnations -- but I suspect that I was Hardline Saturday-Sabbath Observance (from sundown to sundown). Under the RIGHT circumstances -- and with the RIGHT wording -- I might have NO problem observing the Saturday-Sabbath. I was a hardline Sabbath-Keeper for a couple of decades -- until I burned-out on just about everything -- including religion. I am simply concerned about the implications and ramifications of the Decalogue (with it's specific wording) in the context of Deuteronomy -- especially in modernity. There may have been legitimate historical reasons for every word of Deuteronomy -- but I shudder to think of what might happen if Deuteronomy were strictly applied to the Entire Solar System in the Twenty-First Century. How would one observe the Sabbath on the Dark-Side of the Moon??? I have suggested that every day be a holy-day -- and that all aspects of life should be considered 'HOLY' -- including work and recreation. I have further suggested that the larger churches should offer some type of services (or at least sacred-music) every day of the week. I am not rebellious to history and tradition. I am simply trying to determine what might work in modernity -- to attempt to achieve an idealistic integration of the sacred and the secular -- church and state -- divinity and humanity.

    It presently seems to me that any and all answers would be considered the wrong answers by just about everyone. I see nothing but conflict in our future -- if we even have a future. I'd still like to know what the Teachings of Archangel Michael were in the Garden of Eden?! Can someone get me a copy?! This might be KEY regarding what the next best steps for humanity might be. I'd also like to know what other Human Civilizations (if any exist) do regarding the secular and sacred -- church and state -- divinity and humanity. I continue to NOT have sufficient information with which to make proper determinations. I might be ignorant and insane -- but I would NOT be stubborn and standoffish if confronted by a brutal gang of facts (or Dracs). What Would Lord Draco Say???

    Regarding all of the above -- consider the old and new versions of 'V' -- Earth: Final Conflict -- as well as the Adventist and Catholic Healthcare Systems. Pay special attention to the Healing-Centers in the latest version of 'V'. I presently think that Traditional and Alternative Healthcare should be offered side by side (cooperatively and complementary) in all major medical-centers -- 50% Traditional (allopathic, emergency, drugs, surgery, etc.) and 50% Alternative (homeopathic, natural, preventive, rehabilitative, etc.) -- with EQUAL PAY for Traditional and Alternative Practitioners -- and BOTH covered at 100% by all insurance providers. Good-luck with that one -- right??!! Don't miss The Road to Wellville!! I could say a helluva lot more about this -- but I'm afraid to say what I really think. You would NOT believe what I think about. I visualize my conceptualizations -- and I might have a very difficult time verbalizing them -- which might be a blessing in disguise. I think I REALLY understand how things REALLY work in this solar system -- but I am VERY afraid to be frank and honest about this. Some things are better left unsaid. Consider the Subject of Medicine.

    Medicine (i/ˈmɛdsɨn/, i/ˈmɛdɨsɨn/) is the applied science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease.[1] It encompasses a variety of health care practices evolved to maintain and restore health by the prevention and treatment of illness in human beings.

    Contemporary medicine applies health science, biomedical research, and medical technology to diagnose and treat injury and disease, typically through medication or surgery, but also through therapies as diverse as psychotherapy, external splints & traction, prostheses, biologics, ionizing radiation and others.

    The word medicine is derived from the Latin ars medicina, meaning the art of healing.[2][3]

    Clinical practice

    In clinical practice, doctors personally assess patients in order to diagnose, treat, and prevent disease using clinical judgment. The doctor-patient relationship typically begins an interaction with an examination of the patient's medical history and medical record, followed a medical interview[4] and a physical examination. Basic diagnostic medical devices (e.g. stethoscope, tongue depressor) are typically used. After examination for signs and interviewing for symptoms, the doctor may order medical tests (e.g. blood tests), take a biopsy, or prescribe pharmaceutical drugs or other therapies. Differential diagnosis methods help to rule out conditions based on the information provided. During the encounter, properly informing the patient of all relevant facts is an important part of the relationship and the development of trust. The medical encounter is then documented in the medical record, which is a legal document in many jurisdictions.[5] Followups may be shorter but follow the same general procedure.

    The components of the medical interview[4] and encounter are:

    Chief complaint (CC): the reason for the current medical visit. These are the 'symptoms.' They are in the patient's own words and are recorded along with the duration of each one. Also called 'presenting complaint.'

    History of present illness / complaint (HPI): the chronological order of events of symptoms and further clarification of each symptom.

    Current activity: occupation, hobbies, what the patient actually does.

    Medications (Rx): what drugs the patient takes including prescribed, over-the-counter, and home remedies, as well as alternative and herbal medicines/herbal remedies. Allergies are also recorded.

    Past medical history (PMH/PMHx): concurrent medical problems, past hospitalizations and operations, injuries, past infectious diseases and/or vaccinations, history of known allergies.

    Social history (SH): birthplace, residences, marital history, social and economic status, habits (including diet, medications, tobacco, alcohol).

    Family history (FH): listing of diseases in the family that may impact the patient. A family tree is sometimes used.

    Review of systems (ROS) or systems inquiry: a set of additional questions to ask, which may be missed on HPI: a general enquiry (have you noticed any weight loss, change in sleep quality, fevers, lumps and bumps? etc.), followed by questions on the body's main organ systems (heart, lungs, digestive tract, urinary tract, etc.).

    The physical examination is the examination of the patient looking for signs of disease ('Symptoms' are what the patient volunteers, 'Signs' are what the healthcare provider detects by examination). The healthcare provider uses the senses of sight, hearing, touch, and sometimes smell (e.g., in infection, uremia, diabetic ketoacidosis). Taste has been made redundant by the availability of modern lab tests. Four actions are taught as the basis of physical examination: inspection, palpation (feel), percussion (tap to determine resonance characteristics), and auscultation (listen). This order may be modified depending on the main focus of the examination (e.g., a joint may be examined by simply "look, feel, move". Having this set order is an educational tool that encourages practitioners to be systematic in their approach and refrain from using tools such as the stethoscope before they have fully evaluated the other modalities).

    The clinical examination involves the study of:

    Vital signs including height, weight, body temperature, blood pressure, pulse, respiration rate, and hemoglobin oxygen saturation

    General appearance of the patient and specific indicators of disease (nutritional status, presence of jaundice, pallor or clubbing)

    Head, eye, ear, nose, and throat (HEENT)
    Cardiovascular (heart and blood vessels)
    Respiratory (large airways and lungs)
    Abdomen and rectum
    Genitalia (and pregnancy if the patient is or could be pregnant)
    Musculoskeletal (including spine and extremities)
    Neurological (consciousness, awareness, brain, vision, cranial nerves, spinal cord and peripheral nerves)
    Psychiatric (orientation, mental state, evidence of abnormal perception or thought).

    It is to likely focus on areas of interest highlighted in the medical history and may not include everything listed above.

    Laboratory and imaging studies results may be obtained, if necessary.

    The medical decision-making (MDM) process involves analysis and synthesis of all the above data to come up with a list of possible diagnoses (the differential diagnoses), along with an idea of what needs to be done to obtain a definitive diagnosis that would explain the patient's problem.

    The treatment plan may include ordering additional laboratory tests and studies, starting therapy, referral to a specialist, or watchful observation. Follow-up may be advised.

    This process is used by primary care providers as well as specialists. It may take only a few minutes if the problem is simple and straightforward. On the other hand, it may take weeks in a patient who has been hospitalized with bizarre symptoms or multi-system problems, with involvement by several specialists.

    On subsequent visits, the process may be repeated in an abbreviated manner to obtain any new history, symptoms, physical findings, and lab or imaging results or specialist consultations.


    Contemporary medicine is in general conducted within health care systems. Legal, credentialing and financing frameworks are established by individual governments, augmented on occasion by international organizations, such as churches. The characteristics of any given health care system have significant impact on the way medical care is provided.

    From ancient times, Christian emphasis on practical charity gave rise to the development of systematic nursing and hospitals and the Catholic Church today remains the largest non-government provider of medical services in the world.[6] Advanced industrial countries (with the exception of the United States)[7][8] and many developing countries provide medical services through a system of universal health care that aims to guarantee care for all through a single-payer health care system, or compulsory private or co-operative health insurance. This is intended to ensure that the entire population has access to medical care on the basis of need rather than ability to pay. Delivery may be via private medical practices or by state-owned hospitals and clinics, or by charities, most commonly by a combination of all three.

    Most tribal societies, and the United States,[7][8] provide no guarantee of healthcare for the population as a whole. In such societies, healthcare is available to those that can afford to pay for it or have self-insured it (either directly or as part of an employment contract) or who may be covered by care financed by the government or tribe directly.

    Modern drug ampoules

    Transparency of information is another factor defining a delivery system. Access to information on conditions, treatments, quality, and pricing greatly affects the choice by patients/consumers and, therefore, the incentives of medical professionals. While the US healthcare system has come under fire for lack of openness,[9] new legislation may encourage greater openness. There is a perceived tension between the need for transparency on the one hand and such issues as patient confidentiality and the possible exploitation of information for commercial gain on the other.


    See also: Health care, clinic, hospital, and hospice

    Provision of medical care is classified into primary, secondary, and tertiary care categories.

    Primary care medical services are provided by physicians, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, or other health professionals who have first contact with a patient seeking medical treatment or care. These occur in physician offices, clinics, nursing homes, schools, home visits, and other places close to patients. About 90% of medical visits can be treated by the primary care provider. These include treatment of acute and chronic illnesses, preventive care and health education for all ages and both sexes.

    Secondary care medical services are provided by medical specialists in their offices or clinics or at local community hospitals for a patient referred by a primary care provider who first diagnosed or treated the patient. Referrals are made for those patients who required the expertise or procedures performed by specialists. These include both ambulatory care and inpatient services, emergency rooms, intensive care medicine, surgery services, physical therapy, labor and delivery, endoscopy units, diagnostic laboratory and medical imaging services, hospice centers, etc. Some primary care providers may also take care of hospitalized patients and deliver babies in a secondary care setting.

    Tertiary care medical services are provided by specialist hospitals or regional centers equipped with diagnostic and treatment facilities not generally available at local hospitals. These include trauma centers, burn treatment centers, advanced neonatology unit services, organ transplants, high-risk pregnancy, radiation oncology, etc.

    Modern medical care also depends on information – still delivered in many health care settings on paper records, but increasingly nowadays by electronic means.


    Working together as an interdisciplinary team, many highly trained health professionals besides medical practitioners are involved in the delivery of modern health care. Examples include: nurses, emergency medical technicians and paramedics, laboratory scientists, pharmacists, podiatrists physiotherapists, respiratory therapists, speech therapists, occupational therapists, radiographers, dietitians, and bioengineers.

    The scope and sciences underpinning human medicine overlap many other fields. Dentistry, while considered by some a separate discipline from medicine, is a medical field.

    A patient admitted to hospital is usually under the care of a specific team based on their main presenting problem, e.g., the Cardiology team, who then may interact with other specialties, e.g., surgical, radiology, to help diagnose or treat the main problem or any subsequent complications/developments.

    Physicians have many specializations and subspecializations into certain branches of medicine, which are listed below. There are variations from country to country regarding which specialties certain subspecialties are in.

    The main branches of medicine are:

    Basic sciences of medicine; this is what every physician is educated in, and some return to in biomedical research.
    Medical specialties
    Interdisciplinary fields, where different medical specialties are mixed to function in certain occasions.

    Basic sciences

    Anatomy is the study of the physical structure of organisms. In contrast to macroscopic or gross anatomy, cytology and histology are concerned with microscopic structures.

    Biochemistry is the study of the chemistry taking place in living organisms, especially the structure and function of their chemical components.

    Biomechanics is the study of the structure and function of biological systems by means of the methods of Mechanics.

    Biostatistics is the application of statistics to biological fields in the broadest sense. A knowledge of biostatistics is essential in the planning, evaluation, and interpretation of medical research. It is also fundamental to epidemiology and evidence-based medicine.

    Biophysics is an interdisciplinary science that uses the methods of physics and physical chemistry to study biological systems.

    Cytology is the microscopic study of individual cells.

    Embryology is the study of the early development of organisms.

    Endocrinology is the study of hormones and their effect throughout the body of animals.

    Epidemiology is the study of the demographics of disease processes, and includes, but is not limited to, the study of epidemics.

    Genetics is the study of genes, and their role in biological inheritance.

    Histology is the study of the structures of biological tissues by light microscopy, electron microscopy and immunohistochemistry.

    Immunology is the study of the immune system, which includes the innate and adaptive immune system in humans, for example.

    Medical physics is the study of the applications of physics principles in medicine.

    Microbiology is the study of microorganisms, including protozoa, bacteria, fungi, and viruses.

    Molecular biology is the study of molecular underpinnings of the process of replication, transcription and translation of the genetic material.

    Neuroscience includes those disciplines of science that are related to the study of the nervous system. A main focus of neuroscience is the biology and physiology of the human brain and spinal cord. Some related clinical specialties include neurology, neurosurgery and psychiatry.

    Nutrition science (theoretical focus) and dietetics (practical focus) is the study of the relationship of food and drink to health and disease, especially in determining an optimal diet. Medical nutrition therapy is done by dietitians and is prescribed for diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, weight and eating disorders, allergies, malnutrition, and neoplastic diseases.

    Pathology as a science is the study of disease—the causes, course, progression and resolution thereof.
    Pharmacology is the study of drugs and their actions.
    Photobiology is the study of the interactions between non-ionizing radiation and living organisms.
    Physiology is the study of the normal functioning of the body and the underlying regulatory mechanisms.
    Radiobiology is the study of the interactions between ionizing radiation and living organisms.
    Toxicology is the study of hazardous effects of drugs and poisons.


    In the broadest meaning of "medicine", there are many different specialties. In the UK, most specialities will have their own body or college (collectively known as the Royal Colleges, although currently not all use the term "Royal"), which have their own entrance exam. The development of a speciality is often driven by new technology (such as the development of effective anaesthetics) or ways of working (e.g., emergency departments), which leads to the desire to form a unifying body of doctors and thence the prestige of administering their own exam.

    Within medical circles, specialities usually fit into one of two broad categories: "Medicine" and "Surgery." "Medicine" refers to the practice of non-operative medicine, and most subspecialties in this area require preliminary training in "Internal Medicine". In the UK, this would traditionally have been evidenced by obtaining the MRCP (An exam allowing Membership of the Royal College of Physicians or the equivalent college in Scotland or Ireland). "Surgery" refers to the practice of operative medicine, and most subspecialties in this area require preliminary training in "General Surgery." (In the UK: Membership of the Royal College of Surgeons of England (MRCS).)There are some specialties of medicine that at the present time do not fit easily into either of these categories, such as radiology, pathology, or anesthesia. Most of these have branched from one or other of the two camps above – for example anaesthesia developed first as a faculty of the Royal College of Surgeons (for which MRCS/FRCS would have been required) before becoming the Royal College of Anaesthetists and membership of the college is by sitting the FRCA (Fellowship of the Royal College of Anesthetists).


    Surgical specialties employ operative treatment. In addition, surgeons must decide when an operation is necessary, and also treat many non-surgical issues, particularly in the surgical intensive care unit (SICU), where a variety of critical issues arise. Surgeons must also manage pre-operative, post-operative, and potential surgical candidates on the hospital wards. Surgery has many sub-specialties, including general surgery, cardiovascular surgery, colorectal surgery, neurosurgery, maxillofacial surgery, oncologic surgery, orthopedic surgery, otolaryngology, plastic surgery, podiatric surgery, transplant surgery, trauma surgery, urology, vascular surgery, and pediatric surgery. In some centers, anesthesiology is part of the division of surgery (for historical and logistical reasons), although it is not a surgical discipline. Other medical specialties may employ surgical procedures, such as ophthalmology and dermatology, but are not considered surgical sub-specialties per se.

    Surgical training in the U.S. requires a minimum of five years of residency after medical school. Sub-specialties of surgery often require seven or more years. In addition, fellowships can last an additional one to three years. Because post-residency fellowships can be competitive, many trainees devote two additional years to research. Thus in some cases surgical training will not finish until more than a decade after medical school. Furthermore, surgical training can be very difficult and time consuming.

    Internal Medicine

    Internal medicine is the medical specialty concerned with the diagnosis, management and nonsurgical treatment of unusual or serious diseases, either of one particular organ system or of the body as a whole. According to some sources, an emphasis on internal structures is implied.[10] In North America, specialists in internal medicine are commonly called "internists". Elsewhere, especially in Commonwealth nations, such specialists are often called physicians.[11] These terms, internist or physician (in the narrow sense, common outside North America), generally exclude practitioners of gynecology and obstetrics, pathology, psychiatry, and especially surgery and its subspecialities.

    Because their patients are often seriously ill or require complex investigations, internists do much of their work in hospitals. Formerly, many internists were not subspecialized; such general physicians would see any complex nonsurgical problem; this style of practice has become much less common. In modern urban practice, most internists are subspecialists: that is, they generally limit their medical practice to problems of one organ system or to one particular area of medical knowledge. For example, gastroenterologists and nephrologists specialize respectively in diseases of the gut and the kidneys.[12]

    In the Commonwealth of Nations and some other countries, specialist pediatricians and geriatricians are also described as specialist physicians (or internists) who have subspecialized by age of patient rather than by organ system. Elsewhere, especially in North America, general pediatrics is often a form of Primary care.

    There are many subspecialities (or subdisciplines) of internal medicine:

    Critical care medicine
    Infectious diseases
    Sleep medicine.

    Training in internal medicine (as opposed to surgical training), varies considerably across the world: see the articles on Medical education and Physician for more details. In North America, it requires at least three years of residency training after medical school, which can then be followed by a one- to three-year fellowship in the subspecialties listed above. In general, resident work hours in medicine are less than those in surgery, averaging about 60 hours per week in the USA. This difference does not apply in the UK where all doctors are now required by law to work less than 48 hours per week on average.

    Diagnostic specialties

    Clinical laboratory sciences are the clinical diagnostic services that apply laboratory techniques to diagnosis and management of patients. In the United States, these services are supervised by a pathologist. The personnel that work in these medical laboratory departments are technically trained staff who do not hold medical degrees, but who usually hold an undergraduate medical technology degree, who actually perform the tests, assays, and procedures needed for providing the specific services. Subspecialties include Transfusion medicine, Cellular pathology, Clinical chemistry, Hematology, Clinical microbiology and Clinical immunology.

    Pathology as a medical specialty is the branch of medicine that deals with the study of diseases and the morphologic, physiologic changes produced by them. As a diagnostic specialty, pathology can be considered the basis of modern scientific medical knowledge and plays a large role in evidence-based medicine. Many modern molecular tests such as flow cytometry, polymerase chain reaction (PCR), immunohistochemistry, cytogenetics, gene rearrangements studies and fluorescent in situ hybridization (FISH) fall within the territory of pathology.

    Radiology is concerned with imaging of the human body, e.g. by x-rays, x-ray computed tomography, ultrasonography, and nuclear magnetic resonance tomography.

    Nuclear medicine is concerned with studying human organ systems by administering radiolabelled substances (radiopharmaceuticals) to the body, which can then be imaged outside the body by a gamma camera or a PET scanner. Each radiopharmaceutical consists of two parts: a tracer that is specific for the function under study (e.g., neurotransmitter pathway, metabolic pathway, blood flow, or other), and a radionuclide (usually either a gamma-emitter or a positron emitter). There is a degree of overlap between nuclear medicine and radiology, as evidenced by the emergence of combined devices such as the PET/CT scanner.

    Clinical neurophysiology is concerned with testing the physiology or function of the central and peripheral aspects of the nervous system. These kinds of tests can be divided into recordings of: (1) spontaneous or continuously running electrical activity, or (2) stimulus evoked responses. Subspecialties include Electroencephalography, Electromyography, Evoked potential, Nerve conduction study and Polysomnography. Sometimes these tests are performed by techs without a medical degree, but the interpretation of these tests is done by a medical professional.

    Other major specialties

    The followings are some major medical specialties that do not directly fit into any of the above mentioned groups.

    Anesthesiology (also known as anaesthetics): concerned with the perioperative management of the surgical patient. The anesthesiologist's role during surgery is to prevent derangement in the vital organs' (i.e. brain, heart, kidneys) functions and postoperative pain. Outside of the operating room, the anesthesiology physician also served the same function in the labor & delivery ward, and some are specialized in critical medicine.

    Dermatology is concerned with the skin and its diseases. In the UK, dermatology is a subspecialty of general medicine.

    Emergency medicine is concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of acute or life-threatening conditions, including trauma, surgical, medical, pediatric, and psychiatric emergencies.

    Family medicine, family practice, general practice or primary care is, in many countries, the first port-of-call for patients with non-emergency medical problems. Family physicians often provide services across a broad range of settings including office based practices, emergency room coverage, inpatient care, and nursing home care.

    Obstetrics and gynecology (often abbreviated as OB/GYN (American English) or Obs & Gynae (British English)) are concerned respectively with childbirth and the female reproductive and associated organs. Reproductive medicine and fertility medicine are generally practiced by gynecological specialists.

    Medical Genetics is concerned with the diagnosis and management of hereditary disorders.

    Neurology is concerned with diseases of the nervous system. In the UK, neurology is a subspecialty of general medicine.

    Ophthalmology exclusively concerned with the eye and ocular adnexa, combining conservative and surgical therapy.

    Pediatrics (AE) or paediatrics (BE) is devoted to the care of infants, children, and adolescents. Like internal medicine, there are many pediatric subspecialties for specific age ranges, organ systems, disease classes, and sites of care delivery.

    Physical medicine and rehabilitation (or physiatry) is concerned with functional improvement after injury, illness, or congenital disorders.

    Podiatric medicine study of, diagnosis, and medical treatment of disorders of the foot, ankle, lower limb, hip and lower back.

    Psychiatry is the branch of medicine concerned with the bio-psycho-social study of the etiology, diagnosis, treatment and prevention of cognitive, perceptual, emotional and behavioral disorders. Related non-medical fields include psychotherapy and clinical psychology.

    Preventive medicine is the branch of medicine concerned with preventing disease. Community health or public health is an aspect of health services concerned with threats to the overall health of a community based on population health analysis.

    Occupational medicine's principal role is the provision of health advice to organizations and individuals to ensure that the highest standards of health and safety at work can be achieved and maintained.

    Aerospace medicine deals with medical problems related to flying and space travel.

    Interdisciplinary fields

    Some interdisciplinary sub-specialties of medicine include:

    Addiction medicine deals with the treatment of addiction.
    Medical ethics deals with ethical and moral principles that apply values and judgments to the practice of medicine.
    Biomedical Engineering is a field dealing with the application of engineering principles to medical practice.
    Clinical pharmacology is concerned with how systems of therapeutics interact with patients.
    Conservation medicine studies the relationship between human and animal health, and environmental conditions. Also known as ecological medicine, environmental medicine, or medical geology.
    Disaster medicine deals with medical aspects of emergency preparedness, disaster mitigation and management.
    Diving medicine (or hyperbaric medicine) is the prevention and treatment of diving-related problems.
    Evolutionary medicine is a perspective on medicine derived through applying evolutionary theory.
    Forensic medicine deals with medical questions in legal context, such as determination of the time and cause of death, type of weapon used to inflict trauma, reconstruction of the facial features using remains of deceased (skull)thus aiding identification.
    Gender-based medicine studies the biological and physiological differences between the human sexes and how that affects differences in disease.
    Hospice and Palliative Medicine is a relatively modern branch of clinical medicine that deals with pain and symptom relief and emotional support in patients with terminal illnesses including cancer and heart failure.
    Hospital medicine is the general medical care of hospitalized patients. Physicians whose primary professional focus is hospital medicine are called hospitalists in the USA and Canada. The term Most Responsible Physician (MRP) or attending physician is also used interchangeably to describe this role.
    Laser medicine involves the use of lasers in the diagnostics and/or treatment of various conditions.
    Medical humanities includes the humanities (literature, philosophy, ethics, history and religion), social science (anthropology, cultural studies, psychology, sociology), and the arts (literature, theater, film, and visual arts) and their application to medical education and practice.
    Medical informatics, medical computer science, medical information and eHealth are relatively recent fields that deal with the application of computers and information technology to medicine.
    Nosology is the classification of diseases for various purposes.
    Nosokinetics is the science/subject of measuring and modelling the process of care in health and social care systems.
    Pain management (also called pain medicine, or algiatry) is the medical discipline concerned with the relief of pain.
    Pharmacogenomics is a form of individualized medicine.
    Podiatric medicine study of, diagnosis, and medical treatment of disorders of the foot, ankle, lower limb, hip and lower back. .
    Sexual medicine is concerned with diagnosing, assessing and treating all disorders related to sexuality.
    Sports medicine deals with the treatment and prevention and rehabilitation of sports/exercise injuries such as muscle spasms, muscle tears, injuries to ligaments (ligament tears or ruptures) and their repair in athletes, amateur and professional. The team includes specialty physicians and surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, psychiatrists and/or psychologists, coaches, other personnel, and, of course, the athlete.
    Therapeutics is the field, more commonly referenced in earlier periods of history, of the various remedies that can be used to treat disease and promote health.[13]
    Travel medicine or emporiatrics deals with health problems of international travelers or travelers across highly different environments.
    Urgent care focuses on delivery of unscheduled, walk-in care outside of the hospital emergency department for injuries and illnesses that are not severe enough to require care in an emergency department. In some jurisdictions this function is combined with the emergency room.
    Veterinary medicine; veterinarians apply similar techniques as physicians to the care of animals.
    Wilderness medicine entails the practice of medicine in the wild, where conventional medical facilities may not be available.
    Many other health science fields, e.g. dietetics


    Painted by Toulouse-Lautrec in the year of his own death: an examination in the Paris faculty of medicine, 1901
    Medical education and training varies around the world. It typically involves entry level education at a university medical school, followed by a period of supervised practice or internship, and/or residency. This can be followed by postgraduate vocational training. A variety of teaching methods have been employed in medical education, still itself a focus of active research. In Canada and the United States of America, a Doctor of Medicine degree, often abbreviated M.D. or a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree, often abbreviated as D.O. and unique to the United States, must be completed in a recognized university.

    Since knowledge, techniques, and medical technology continue to evolve at a rapid rate, many regulatory authorities require continuing medical education. The means through which doctors upgrade their medical knowledge include medical journals, seminars, conferences and online programs apart from others.

    Medical ethics

    Medical ethics is a system of moral principles that apply values and judgments to the practice of medicine. As a scholarly discipline, medical ethics encompasses its practical application in clinical settings as well as work on its history, philosophy, theology, and sociology. Six of the values that commonly apply to medical ethics discussions are:
    autonomy - the patient has the right to refuse or choose their treatment. (Voluntas aegroti suprema lex.)
    beneficence - a practitioner should act in the best interest of the patient. (Salus aegroti suprema lex.)
    justice - concerns the distribution of scarce health resources, and the decision of who gets what treatment (fairness and equality).
    non-maleficence - "first, do no harm" (primum non nocere).
    respect for persons - the patient (and the person treating the patient) have the right to be treated with dignity.
    truthfulness and honesty - the concept of informed consent has increased in importance since the historical events of the Doctors' Trial of the Nuremberg trials and Tuskegee syphilis experiment.

    Values such as these do not give answers as to how to handle a particular situation, but provide a useful framework for understanding conflicts. When moral values are in conflict, the result may be an ethical dilemma or crisis. Sometimes, no good solution to a dilemma in medical ethics exists, and occasionally, the values of the medical community (i.e., the hospital and its staff) conflict with the values of the individual patient, family, or larger non-medical community. Conflicts can also arise between health care providers, or among family members. For example, some argue that the principles of autonomy and beneficence clash when patients refuse blood transfusions, considering them life-saving; and truth-telling was not emphasized to a large extent before the HIV era.

    Legal controls

    In most countries, it is a legal requirement for a medical doctor to be licensed or registered. In general, this entails a medical degree from a university and accreditation by a medical board or an equivalent national organization, which may ask the applicant to pass exams. This restricts the considerable legal authority of the medical profession to physicians that are trained and qualified by national standards. It is also intended as an assurance to patients and as a safeguard against charlatans that practice inadequate medicine for personal gain. While the laws generally require medical doctors to be trained in "evidence based", Western, or Hippocratic Medicine, they are not intended to discourage different paradigms of health.

    In the European Union, the profession of doctor of medicine is regulated. A profession is said to be regulated when access and exercise is subject to the possession of a specific professional qualification. The regulated professions database contains a list of regulated professions for doctor of medicine in the EU member states, EEA countries and Switzerland. This list is covered by the Directive 2005/36/EC .

    Doctors who are negligent or intentionally harmful in their care of patients can face charges of medical malpractice and be subject to civil, criminal, or professional sanctions.

    Criticism of modern medicine

    According to Paul Farmer, the main problem for modern medicine is lack of access in poor regions. There is an "outcome gap" between the rich and poor that is most noticeable with expensive-to-treat diseases like AIDS and tuberculosis. The majority of medical resources and therapies are concentrated in the rich, low-incidence regions such as the West. On the other hand, countries in the developing world have high rates of HIV but lack the resources to treat them.[14]

    Medical errors and overmedication and other forms of iatrogenesis (harms caused by medical treatment) are also the focus of complaints and negative coverage. Practitioners of human factors engineering believe that there is much that medicine may usefully gain by emulating concepts in aviation safety, where it is recognized that it is dangerous to place too much responsibility on one "superhuman" individual and expect him or her not to make errors. Reporting systems and checking mechanisms are becoming more common in identifying sources of error and improving practice. Clinical versus statistical, algorithmic diagnostic methods were famously examined in psychiatric practice in a 1954 book by Paul E. Meehl, which found statistical methods superior.[15] A 2000 meta-analysis comparing these methods in both psychology and medicine found that statistical or "mechanical" diagnostic methods were, in general, although not always, superior.[15]

    Disparities in quality of care given among local demographics are often an additional cause of controversy.[16] For example, elderly mentally ill patients received poorer care during hospitalization in a 2008 study.[17] Rural poor African-American men were used in an infamous study of syphilis that denied them basic medical care.

    Nobel prize in Physiology or Medicine

    The highest honor awarded in medicine is the Nobel Prize in Medicine, awarded since 1901 by the Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet.


    A statuette of ancient Egyptian physician Imhotep, depicts the first physician from antiquity known by name. Prehistoric medicine incorporated plants (herbalism), animal parts and minerals. In many cases these materials were used ritually as magical substances by priests, shamans, or medicine men. Well-known spiritual systems include animism (the notion of inanimate objects having spirits), spiritualism (an appeal to gods or communion with ancestor spirits); shamanism (the vesting of an individual with mystic powers); and divination (magically obtaining the truth). The field of medical anthropology examines the ways in which culture and society are organized around or impacted by issues of health, health care and related issues.

    The Greek physician Hippocrates (ca. 460 BCE – ca. 370 BCE), is considered the father of medicine.[18][19] Early records on medicine have been discovered from ancient Egyptian medicine, Babylonian medicine, Ayurvedic medicine (in the Indian subcontinent), classical Chinese medicine (predecessor to the modern traditional Chinese Medicine), and ancient Greek medicine and Roman medicine. The Egyptian Imhotep (3rd millennium BC) is the first physician in history known by name. Earliest records of dedicated hospitals come from Mihintale in Sri Lanka where evidence of dedicated medicinal treatment facilities for patients are found.[20][21] The Indian surgeon Sushruta described numerous surgical operations, including the earliest forms of plastic surgery.[22][dubious – discuss][23][24]

    The Greek physician Hippocrates, the "father of medicine",[18][19] laid the foundation for a rational approach to medicine. Hippocrates introduced the Hippocratic Oath for physicians, which is still relevant and in use today, and was the first to categorize illnesses as acute, chronic, endemic and epidemic, and use terms such as, "exacerbation, relapse, resolution, crisis, paroxysm, peak, and convalescence".[25][26]

    The Greek physician Galen was also one of the greatest surgeons of the ancient world and performed many audacious operations, including brain and eye surgeries. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the onset of the Early Middle Ages, the Greek tradition of medicine went into decline in Western Europe, although it continued uninterrupted in the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire.

    Most of our knowledge of ancient Hebrew medicine during the 1st millennium BC comes from the Torah, i.e. the Five Books of Moses, which contain various health related laws and rituals. The Hebrew contribution to the development of modern medicine started in the Byzantine Era, with the physician Asaph the Jew.[27]

    Middle ages

    After 750 CE, the Muslim world had the works of Hippocrates, Galen and Sushruta translated into Arabic, and Islamic physicians engaged in some significant medical research. Notable Islamic medical pioneers include the polymath, Avicenna, who, along with Imhotep and Hippocrates, has also been called the "father of medicine".[28][29] He wrote The Canon of Medicine, considered one of the most famous books in the history of medicine.[30] Others include Abulcasis,[31] Avenzoar,[32] Ibn al-Nafis,[33] and Averroes.[34] Rhazes[35] was one of first to question the Greek theory of humorism, which nevertheless remained influential in both medieval Western and medieval Islamic medicine.[36] The Islamic Bimaristan hospitals were an early example of public hospitals.[37][38]

    In Europe, Charlemagne decreed that a hospital should be attached to each cathedral and monastery and the historian Geoffrey Blainey likened the activities of the Catholic Church in health care during the Middle Ages to an early version of a welfare state: "It conducted hospitals for the old and orphanages for the young; hospices for the sick of all ages; places for the lepers; and hostels or inns where pilgrims could buy a cheap bed and meal". It supplied food to the population during famine and distributed food to the poor. This welfare system the church funded through collecting taxes on a large scale and possessing large farmlands and estates. The Benedictine order was noted for setting up hospitals and infirmaries in their monasteries, growing medical herbs and becoming the chief medical care givers of their districts, as at the great Abbey of Cluny. The Church also established a network of cathedral schools and univerities where medicine was studied. The Schola Medica Salernitana in Salerno, looking to the learning of Greek and Arab physicians, grew to be the finest medical school in Medieval Europe.[39]

    Siena's Santa Maria della Scala Hospital, is one of Europe's oldest hospitals. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church established universities which revived the study of sciences - drawing on the learning of Greek and Arab physicians in the study of medicine. However, the fourteenth and fifteenth century Black Death devastated both the Middle East and Europe, and it has even been argued that Western Europe was generally more effective in recovering from the pandemic than the Middle East.[40] In the early modern period, important early figures in medicine and anatomy emerged in Europe, including Gabriele Falloppio and William Harvey.

    The major shift in medical thinking was the gradual rejection, especially during the Black Death in the 14th and 15th centuries, of what may be called the 'traditional authority' approach to science and medicine. This was the notion that because some prominent person in the past said something must be so, then that was the way it was, and anything one observed to the contrary was an anomaly (which was paralleled by a similar shift in European society in general – see Copernicus's rejection of Ptolemy's theories on astronomy). Physicians like Vesalius improved upon or disproved some of the theories from the past. The main tomes used both by medicine students and expert physicians were Materia Medica and Pharmacopoeia.

    Andreas Vesalius was an author of one of the most influential books on human anatomy, De humani corporis fabrica.[41] French surgeon Ambroise Paré is considered as one of the fathers of surgery. Bacteria and microorganisms were first observed with a microscope by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek in 1676, initiating the scientific field microbiology.[42] Independently from Ibn al-Nafis, Michael Servetus rediscovered the pulmonary circulation, but this discovery did not reach the public because it was written down for the first time in the "Manuscript of Paris"[43] in 1546, and later published in the theological work for which he paid with his life in 1553. Later this was described by Renaldus Columbus and Andrea Cesalpino. Partly based on the works by the Italian surgeon and anatomist Renaldus Columbus the English physician William Harvey described the circulatory system.[44] Herman Boerhaave is sometimes referred to as a "father of physiology" due to his exemplary teaching in Leiden and textbook 'Institutiones medicae' (1708). It is said that the 17th century French physician Pierre Fauchard started dentistry science as we know it today, and he has been named "the father of modern dentistry".[45]


    Veterinary medicine was, for the first time, truly separated from human medicine in 1761, when the French veterinarian Claude Bourgelat founded the world's first veterinary school in Lyon, France. Before this, medical doctors treated both humans and other animals.

    Modern scientific biomedical research (where results are testable and reproducible) began to replace early Western traditions based on herbalism, the Greek "four humours" and other such pre-modern notions. The modern era really began with Edward Jenner's discovery of the smallpox vaccine at the end of the 18th century (inspired by the method of inoculation earlier practiced in Asia), Robert Koch's discoveries around 1880 of the transmission of disease by bacteria, and then the discovery of antibiotics around 1900.

    The post-18th century modernity period brought more groundbreaking researchers from Europe. From Germany and Austria, doctors Rudolf Virchow, Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen, Karl Landsteiner and Otto Loewi made notable contributions. In the United Kingdom, Alexander Fleming, Joseph Lister, Francis Crick and Florence Nightingale are considered important. Spanish doctor Santiago Ramón y Cajal is considered the father of modern neuroscience.

    From New Zealand and Australia came Maurice Wilkins, Howard Florey, and Frank Macfarlane Burnet.

    In the United States, William Williams Keen, William Coley, James D. Watson, Italy (Salvador Luria), Switzerland (Alexandre Yersin), Japan (Kitasato Shibasaburō), and France (Jean-Martin Charcot, Claude Bernard, Paul Broca and others did significant work). Russian Nikolai Korotkov also did significant work, as did Sir William Osler and Harvey Cushing.

    Alexander Fleming's discovery of penicillin in September 1928 marks the start of modern antibiotics.
    As science and technology developed, medicine became more reliant upon medications. Throughout history and in Europe right until the late 18th century, not only animal and plant products were used as medicine, but also human body parts and fluids.[46] Pharmacology developed from herbalism and many drugs are still derived from plants (atropine, ephedrine, warfarin, aspirin, digoxin, vinca alkaloids, taxol, hyoscine, etc.). Vaccines were discovered by Edward Jenner and Louis Pasteur.

    The first antibiotic was arsphenamine / Salvarsan discovered by Paul Ehrlich in 1908 after he observed that bacteria took up toxic dyes that human cells did not. The first major class of antibiotics was the sulfa drugs, derived by German chemists originally from azo dyes.

    Pharmacology has become increasingly sophisticated; modern biotechnology allows drugs targeted towards specific physiological processes to be developed, sometimes designed for compatibility with the body to reduce side-effects. Genomics and knowledge of human genetics is having some influence on medicine, as the causative genes of most monogenic genetic disorders have now been identified, and the development of techniques in molecular biology and genetics are influencing medical technology, practice and decision-making.

    Evidence-based medicine is a contemporary movement to establish the most effective algorithms of practice (ways of doing things) through the use of systematic reviews and meta-analysis. The movement is facilitated by modern global information science, which allows as much of the available evidence as possible to be collected and analyzed according to standard protocols that are then disseminated to healthcare providers. The Cochrane Collaboration leads this movement. A 2001 review of 160 Cochrane systematic reviews revealed that, according to two readers, 21.3% of the reviews concluded insufficient evidence, 20% concluded evidence of no effect, and 22.5% concluded positive effect.[47]

    Patron saints

    There are a number of patron saints for physicians, the most important of whom are Saint Luke the Evangelist the physician and disciple of Christ, Saints Cosmas and Damian (3rd-century physicians from Syria), and Saint Pantaleon (4th-century physician from Nicomedia). Archangel Raphael is also considered a patron saint of physicians. In India and in Hinduism, Dhanavantari, a form of Lord Vishnu and "Vaidyanatha" meaning 'Lord of Medicine', a form of Lord Shiva are the patron deities of medicine.

    The patron saints for surgeons are Saint Luke the Evangelist, the physician and disciple of Christ, Saints Cosmas and Damian (3rd-century physicians from Syria), Saint Quentin (3rd-century saint from France), Saint Foillan (7th-century saint from Ireland), and Saint Roch (14th-century saint from France).


    1.^ Oxford English Dictionary definition of "medicine"
    2.^ Etymology: Latin: medicina, from ars medicina "the medical art", from medicus "physician". (Etym.Online) Cf. mederi "to heal", etym. "know the best course for," from PIE base *med- "to measure, limit. Cf. Greek medos "counsel, plan", Avestan vi-mad "physician")
    3.^ "Medicine" Online Etymology Dictionary
    4.^ a b Coulehan JL, Block MR (2005). The Medical Interview: Mastering Skills for Clinical Practice (5th ed.). F. A. Davis. ISBN 0-8036-1246-X. OCLC 232304023.
    5.^ Addison K, Braden JH, Cupp JE, Emmert D, et al. (AHIMA e-HIM Work Group on the Legal Health Record) (September 2005). "Update: Guidelines for Defining the Legal Health Record for Disclosure Purposes". Journal of AHIMA 78 (Cool: 64A–G. PMID 16245584.
    6.^ Geoffrey Blainey; A Short History of Christianity; Penguin Viking; 2011
    7.^ a b Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations, Institute of Medicine at the National Academies of Science, 2004-01-14
    8.^ a b "The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States". Retrieved 4 May 2009.
    9.^ Martin Sipkoff (January 2004). "Transparency called key to uniting cost control, quality improvement". Managed Care.
    10.^ "internal medicine" at Dorland's Medical Dictionary
    11.^ H.W. Fowler. (1994). A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (Wordsworth Collection) (Wordsworth Collection). NTC/Contemporary Publishing Company. ISBN 1-85326-318-4.
    12.^ "The Royal Australasian College of Physicians: What are Physicians?". Royal Australasian College of Physicians. Archived from the original on 6 March 2008. Retrieved 5 February 2008.
    13.^ "therapeutics (medicine) - Britannica Online Encyclopedia". Retrieved 2012-04-21.
    14.^ Farmer, Paul (2001). "The major infectious diseases in the world--to treat or not to treat?". The New England Journal of Medicine. Retrieved 5 November 2012.
    15.^ a b Grove WH, Zald DH, Lebow BS, Snitz BE, Nelson C. (2000). "Clinical versus mechanical prediction: A meta-analysis" (w). Psychological Assessment 12 (1): 19–30. doi:10.1037/1040-3590.12.1.19. PMID 10752360.
    16.^ "Eliminating Health Disparities". American Medical Association.
    17.^ "Mental Disorders, Quality of Care, and Outcomes Among Older Patients Hospitalized With Heart Failure".
    18.^ a b Grammaticos, P. C.; Diamantis, A. (2008). "Useful known and unknown views of the father of modern medicine, Hippocrates and his teacher Democritus". Hellenic journal of nuclear medicine 11 (1): 2–4. PMID 18392218. edit
    19.^ a b The father of modern medicine: the first research of the physical factor of tetanus, European Society of Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases
    20.^ Prof. Arjuna Aluvihare, "Rohal Kramaya Lovata Dhayadha Kale Sri Lankikayo" Vidhusara Science Magazine, November 1993.
    21.^ Resource Mobilization in Sri Lanka's Health Sector – Rannan-Eliya, Ravi P. & De Mel, Nishan, Harvard School of Public Health & Health Policy Programme, Institute of Policy Studies[disambiguation needed], February 1997, Page 19. Accessed 2008-02-22.
    22.^ A. Singh and D. Sarangi (2003). "We need to think and act", Indian Journal of Plastic Surgery.
    23.^ H. W. Longfellow (2002). "History of Plastic Surgery in India", Journal of Postgraduate Medicine.
    24.^ Saraf, Sanjay; Ravi S. Parihar (2007). "Sushruta: The first Plastic Surgeon in 600 B.C.". The Internet Journal of Plastic Surgery 4. doi:10.5580/1456#sthash.mkTSe3sP.dpuf. ISSN 1528-8293 ISSN: 1528-8293. Retrieved 12 November 2012.
    25.^ Garrison 1966, p. 97
    26.^ Martí-Ibáñez 1961, p. 90
    27.^ Vaisrub, Samuel; A. Denman, Michael; Naparstek, Yaakov; Gilon, Dan (2008). "Medicine". Encyclopaedia Judaica. The Gale Group.
    28.^ Becka J (1980). "The father of medicine, Avicenna, in our science and culture: Abu Ali ibn Sina (980–1037) (Czech title: Otec lékarů Avicenna v nasí vĕdĕ a kulture)". Cas Lek Cesk (in Czech) 119 (1): 17–23. PMID 6989499.
    29.^ "Medical Practitioners". Retrieved 2012-04-21.
    30.^ ""The Canon of Medicine" (work by Avicenna)". Encyclopædia Britannica. 2008. Retrieved 11 June 2008.
    31.^ Ahmad, Z. (St Thomas' Hospital) (2007). "Al-Zahrawi – The Father of Surgery". ANZ Journal of Surgery 77 (Suppl. 1): A83. doi:10.1111/j.1445-2197.2007.04130_8.x
    32.^ Rabie E. Abdel-Halim (2006), "Contributions of Muhadhdhab Al-Deen Al-Baghdadi to the progress of medicine and urology", Saudi Medical Journal 27 (11): 1631–1641.
    33.^ Chairman's Reflections (2004), "Traditional Medicine Among Gulf Arabs, Part II: Blood-letting", Heart Views 5 (2): 74–85 [80].
    34.^ Martín-Araguz A, Bustamante-Martínez C, Fernández-Armayor Ajo V, Moreno-Martínez JM (2002-05-01—15). "Neuroscience in al-Andalus and its influence on medieval scholastic medicine". Revista de neurología (in Spanish) 34 (9): 877–892. PMID 12134355.
    35.^ David W. Tschanz, PhD (2003), "Arab(?) Roots of European Medicine", Heart Views 4 (2).
    36.^ On the dominance of the Greek humoral theory, which was the basis for the practice of bloodletting, in medieval Islamic medicine see Peter E. Pormann and E. Savage Smith,Medieval Islamic medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, 2007 p. 10, 43–45.
    37.^ Micheau, Françoise. "The Scientific Institutions in the Medieval Near East". pp. 991–2, in (Morelon & Rashed 1996, pp. 985–1007)
    38.^ Peter Barrett (2004), Science and Theology Since Copernicus: The Search for Understanding, p. 18, Continuum International Publishing Group, ISBN 0-567-08969-X.
    39.^ Geoffrey Blainey; A Short History of Christianity; Penguin Viking; 2011; pp 214-215.
    40.^ Michael Dols has shown that the Black Death was much more commonly believed by European authorities than by Middle Eastern authorities to be contagious; as a result, flight was more commonly counseled, and in urban Italy quarantines were organized on a much wider level than in urban Egypt or Syria (The Black Death in the Middle East Princeton, 1977, p. 119; 285–290).
    41.^ "Page through a virtual copy of Vesalius's ''De Humanis Corporis Fabrica''". Retrieved 2012-04-21.
    42.^ Madigan M, Martinko J (editors) (2006). Brock Biology of Microorganisms (11th ed.). Prentice Hall. ISBN 0-13-144329-1.
    43.^ Michael Servetus Research Website with a graphical study on the Manuscript of Paris by Servetus
    44.^ Zimmer, Carl. 2004. Soul Made Flesh: The Discovery of the Brain – and How It Changed the World. New York: Free Press.
    45.^ "Pierre Fauchard: the 'Father of Modern Dentistry'". British Dental Journal 201, 779 – 781 (2006)
    46.^ Cooper, Peter. Medicinal properties of body parts. The Pharmaceutical Journal, 18/25 December 2004, Vol. 273 / No 7330, pp. 900–902.
    47.^ Ezzo J, Bausell B, Moerman DE, Berman B, Hadhazy V (2001). "Reviewing the reviews. How strong is the evidence? How clear are the conclusions?". Int J Technol Assess Health Care 17 (4): 457–466.


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    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:46 pm

    Once again, I attend no church presently -- but I have attended a huge number of church services in the past (including dozens of Novus Ordo Masses). I grew-up as an SDA -- and I attended the Crystal Cathedral for four years -- as well as attending the Episcopal Church for several years (including working in a church office for a couple of years). Anyway -- I have imagined what I would like to see in a solar system church and state integration -- which involves the Roman Catholic Church -- simply because they seem to be at the center of solar system governance presently -- whether anyone realizes this, or not. I guess I'm an Open-Infiltrator of Roman Catholicism -- even though I have NO clue what I'm doing!! I'm sort of a Friendly-Enemy or a Hostile-Friend (I'm not sure which). I often imagine myself as being a Renegade French Jesuit Organist. My path is very passive and very strange. I have no idea where I'm going with this. All I know is that I'm trying to model some ideas which no one else seems to be thinking about. My hope is that the right people (and other than people) will learn something significant from this experiment. This process makes me VERY uncomfortable. I am interested in church and state -- and in the proper relationship between the two -- yet I am extremely disillusioned with just about everyone and everything -- secular and sacred. I've decided to model a radical and contrarian political and theological science-fictional approach to life, the universe, and everything. Here are some interesting theological coversations by a couple of renegade SDA theologians in the early 1990's. Imagine how far things have moved since then!! Again, I am not hateful or hostile -- but I am very questioning and interested -- while remaining as neutral as possible -- although I am reconsidering my openness. I'm seeking solutions -- yet I fear that I am being taken advantage of -- and being played as a fool. Everyone plays the Completely Ignorant Fool.

    1. 2. 3.

    These videos tend to support my theory that ALL religions are part of ONE RELIGION and UNDER ONE LEADER. I guess that's one reason why I no longer attend church. I'm not opposed to church, to globalism, to cooperation, to unity, etc, etc -- but something seems to have been very wrong at the very highest levels for a very long time. Again, this is very tricky territory. I wonder where a neutral researcher (not a member or employee of any church) would end up if they studied the following sources:

    1. The Latin Mass.
    2. The 1928 Book of Common Prayer.
    3. Sacred Classical Music.
    4. The Federalist Papers.
    4. Fulton Sheen.
    5. Malachi Martin.
    6. Desmond Ford.
    7. Ellen G. White.
    8. Robert H. Schuller.

    This is a VERY interesting study list on so many levels. I realize that I'm ignorant and insane -- and that nothing I suggest or do will amount to anything of significance -- but I still would be interested to learn what conclusions would be reached by such a study -- say a doctoral dissertation based upon these eight sources -- in the context of a secular university -- by an Ex Roman Catholic (who is more agnostic than true-believer -- yet remains open and objective). The more I think about such things -- the more I realize how futile and stupid all of this is. It is a monumental waste of time and energy. No one gives a damn about such things. None of you do. I'll continue to go through the motions -- even though I know that this exercise in futility is utterly pointless. I would LOVE to see an ivy-league doctoral-disseration based upon this thread. But seriously, the amount of material which I have pointed toward would probably take the most capable researchers an entire lifetime to properly digest and evaluate.

    I support setting things right -- but I do not support breaking the Ten Commandments to destroy Commandment-Breakers. I understand having some sort of a Karmic Debtors Prison -- but I do NOT understand Genocide, an Eternally Burning Hell, or the Extermination of the Soul. I endorse a Reasonable System of Rewards and Punishments. Unfortunately, the Book of Revelation doesn't seem to agree with me. Theology often seems overly harsh, arbitrary, and unreasonable. I find it to be a very frustrating subject. I found speaking with an Ancient Egyptian Deity to be somewhat frustrating -- when they refused to answer most of my questions -- or gave responses which made my spine tingle and my stomach churn. I feel the same way when I watch angelic conversation and debate on television and in the movies. I mostly have to talk to myself about theology and philosophy. I mostly talk to myself on this website. Beyond doing this -- things go downhill rather quickly. A very interesting individual told me that I was mostly arguing with myself. Is it a sin to consider all of the options and possibilities (even the bad ones) prior to arriving at the most important determinations imaginable??

    I keep wondering where Jesus was at the Creation of Humanity?? I keep wondering where Jesus was throughout the Old Testament?? I keep wondering why Jesus had to not sin (even once) throughout his entire life?? I keep wondering why Jesus had to be brutally beaten and murdered as a human sacrifice to pay the price for our sin (which we can't seem to help anyway -- because of Original Sin)?? We seem to be able to sin at will -- as long as we're baptized, go to confession (telling a priest about our extramarital sexual pleasures) and communion (eating flesh and drinking blood), give lots of money to the church -- truly repent of our nasty deeds -- and truly trust in the Human-Sacrifice of Jesus Christ!! I keep wondering why Jesus had to leave Earth -- once he had won the battle -- and gained the victory over Sin and Satan?? Shouldn't Jesus have been in charge, at that point?? Who has been running the show on Planet Earth in the absence of Jesus Christ?? Jesus seemed to be loving -- yet the Return of Christ seems to involve Mass Murder. What's Wrong with This Picture??

    What is the proper way to approach historical analysis?? Should there even be historical analysis?? I continue to be burdened by the theory of Three Key Archangels in Conflict with Each Other -- going way, way, way back. Should I even think about such things?? Have the various religions, churches, theologians, and philosophers taught this sort of thing?? I have been exposed to the concept of the Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan in the Conflict of the Ages -- more than most people on the planet -- yet I have refined this concept into being the Great Archangelic Controversy Between Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer in the Conflict of the Ages Within This Solar System. The theory being that Michael was key in the Creation of the Human Being and Representive Governance Which Maximized Responsible Freedom -- and that this did not sit well with the Galactic Powers That Be in a Very Traditional and Theocratic Other Than Human Universe -- leading to a crackdown led by Archangel Gabriel -- with Lucifer initially siding with Michael -- but then switching sides when the defeat of Michael seemed unavoidable. Then, as the theory goes, Lucifer became the God of This World as Second in Command to Gabriel (The Queen of Heaven?). At some point, as the theory continues, Lucifer rebelled against Gabriel -- and that the horrors of history might be best explained by this hypothetical Ancient and Ongoing Archangelic War in Heaven and Earth. Archangel Michael would've been largely powerless in this solar system -- yet I wonder if they might have ruled elsewhere in the universe during this time period??

    What if the Biblical Deities are best explained by referring to Gabriel and Lucifer -- with Michael mostly out of the picture?? Who are the Father, Son, and Holy-Spirit REALLY??? Who are Jesus and Mary REALLY??? What if Michael (or Agents of Michael) documented everything transpiring in this solar system -- and that part of this record is the Holy Bible?? What if there is a larger body of Sacred Scripture in which context the Holy Bible would make much more sense than it does in an unenlightened isolation?? To put it bluntly -- What if God Created Humanity -- and was Subsequently and Consequently Overthrown by Two Rival Deities (or System-Lords)?? What if these hypothetical rivals had noble motives initially -- but became corrupted by the challenges of managing humanity?? What if the exposure of thousands of years of dirty linen will result in a Final Jihad aka the Battle of Armageddon?? What if the original Deity will find that (even if victorious) that Managing Humanity Idealistically will be Impossible -- resulting in a Failed Theocracy and a Subsequent Extermination??? What if the management of humanity will have to continue in a somewhat non-idealistic manner for literally centuries -- with evolutionary and incremental improvement -- ultimately leading to Heaven on Earth??? Might over-correcting This Present Purgatory result in the end of life as we know it within this solar system?? Would a United States of the Solar System constitute an over-correction?? Is it a Sin to think such thoughts??? Do such thoughts belong within The Mists of Avalon???

    I wish to make it very clear that I am seeking understanding and solutions -- rather than just ranting and raving to hurt and humiliate those who disagree with me. I don't think I have this thing all figured out -- yet I feel as if I might've helped some of you to get a lot closer to the REAL answers. I simply don't have the energy and intellect to get the job done. Besides, I'm not a part of some advanced research team at an ivy-league university (or in a Subsurface Lunar Base). Know that I'm only doing what I'm doing because the InfoWar has gotten so very hot over the past few years. God hasn't been sleeping. God got tired of the BS -- and has been setting things right on the internet!! God shall NOT be Mocked or Confounded!! BTW -- I'd sure like to know what REALLY was behind the Papal-Retirement AND the Jesuit Papal Replacement. I sure hope the reasons were legitimate -- but I suspect that they were not. I've become rather jaded and cynical in my old age. Please remember that this entire thread is an experiment -- rather than an excathedra encyclical. My real-life attitude is very different than that which I project throughout this thread. I think some of you know what I'm doing -- but I haven't spelled it out for you.

    Can someone please produce the Teachings of Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer -- With the Universal Reaction -- Before, During, and After the Creation of Humanity???

    Perhaps we should take a closer look at the First Vatican Council and the Second Vatican Council. What if the Proper Protestant Position is that Roman Catholicism is a Corrupted Version of an Idealistic Plan?? Should Protestants ponder what Roman Catholicism should and could be -- rather than demnoizing the entire phenomenon -- historically and presently?? Frankly, without knowing the REAL inside story, it is nearly impossible to know what to think and do. I've simply been attempting to help some of us think the unthinkable. I continue to worry that after we expose all of the nasty people (and other than people) along with their nasty deeds -- that we will learn (much to our horror) that things had to be as bad as they were -- throughout history -- and that things might have to get even worse before things get better -- if they get better. Take this thread with a Sea of Salt.

    The First Vatican Council was convoked by Pope Pius IX on 29 June 1868, after a period of planning and preparation that began on 6 December 1864.[1] This twentieth ecumenical council of the Catholic Church,[2] held three centuries after the Council of Trent, opened on 8 December 1869 and adjourned on 20 October 1870.[1] Unlike the five earlier General Councils held in Rome, which met in the Lateran Basilica and are known as Lateran Councils, it met in the Vatican Basilica, hence its name. Its best-known decision is its definition of papal infallibility.

    The Council was convoked to deal with the contemporary problems of the rising influence of rationalism, liberalism, and materialism.[2] Its purpose was, besides this, to define the Catholic doctrine concerning the Church of Christ.[3] There was discussion and approval of only two constitutions: the Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith and the First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, the latter dealing with the primacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome.[3] The first matter brought up for debate was the dogmatic draft of Catholic doctrine against the manifold errors due to Rationalism.[4]

    Papal Infallibility

    The doctrine of papal infallibility was not new and had been used by Pope Pius in defining as dogma, in 1854, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus.[5] However, the proposal to define papal infallibility itself as dogma met with resistance, not because of doubts about the substance of the proposed definition, but because some considered it inopportune to take that step at that time.[5] McBrien divides the bishops attending Vatican I into three groups. The first group, which McBrien calls the "active infallibilists", was led by Manning and Senestrey. This group took an extreme view that argued that all papal teachings were infallible and that papal infallibility was the foundation of the church's infallibility. According to McBrien, the majority of the bishops were not so much interested in a formal definition of papal infallibility as they were in strengthening papal authority and, because of this, were willing to accept the agenda of the infallibilists. A minority, some 10 percent of the bishops, opposed the proposed definition of papal infallibility on both ecclesiastical and pragmatic grounds. They opposed the ultramontane centralist model of the Church because, in their opinion, it departed from the ecclesiastical structure of the early Christian church.[6] From a pragmatic perspective, they feared that defining papal infallibility would alienate some Catholics, create new difficulties for union with non-Catholics, and provoke interference by governments in Church affairs.[1] Those who held this view included most of the German and Austro-Hungarian bishops, nearly half of the Americans, one third of the French, most of the Chaldaeans and Melkites, and a few Armenians.[1] Only a few bishops appear to have had doubts about the dogma itself.[1]

    Dei Filius

    On 24 April 1870, the dogmatic constitution on the Catholic faith Dei Filius was adopted unanimously. The draft presented to the Council on 8 March drew no serious criticism, but a group of 35 English-speaking bishops, who feared that the opening phrase of the first chapter, "Sancta romana catholica Ecclesia" (the holy Roman Catholic Church), might be construed as favouring the Anglican Branch Theory, later succeeded in having an additional adjective inserted, so that the final text read: "Sancta catholica apostolica romana Ecclesia" (the holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church).[7] The constitution thus set forth the teaching of the "Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church" on God, revelation and faith.[8]

    Pastor Aeternus

    There was stronger opposition to the draft constitution on the nature of the Church, which at first did not include the question of papal infallibility,[2] but the majority party in the Council, whose position on this matter was much stronger,[5] brought it forward. It was decided to postpone discussion of everything in the draft except infallibility.[5] On 13 July 1870, the section on infallibility was voted on: 451 voted simply in favour (placet), 88 against (non placet), and 62 in favour but on condition of some amendment (placet iuxta modum).[5] This made evident what the final outcome would be, and some 60 members of the opposition left Rome so as not to be associated with approval of the document. The final vote, with a choice only between placet and non placet, was taken on 18 July 1870, with 433 votes in favour and only 2 against defining as a dogma the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra.[2] The two votes against were cast by Bishop Aloisio Riccio, and Bishop Edward Fitzgerald.[4]

    The dogmatic constitution states that the Pope has "full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church" (chapter 3:9); and that, when he "speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals" (chapter 4:9).

    None of the bishops who had argued that proclaiming the definition was inopportune refused to accept it. Some Catholics, mainly of German language and largely inspired by the historian Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger (who did not formally join the new group) formed the separate Old Catholic Church in protest.[9]


    Discussion of the rest of the document on the nature of the Church was to continue when the bishops returned after a summer break. However, in the meanwhile the Franco-Prussian War broke out. With the swift German advance and the capture of Emperor Napoleon III, France was no longer in a position to protect the Pope's rule in Rome.

    Consequently, on 20 September 1870, the Kingdom of Italy captured Rome and annexed it. One month later, on 20 October 1870, Pope Pius IX suspended the Council indefinitely. It was never reconvened and formally closed in 1960 prior to the Second Vatican Council.

    Leaving Rome and reopening the council considered

    Moritz Busch recounts that Otto von Bismarck confided that, after the capture of Rome, Pius IX considered leaving Rome and reopening the Council elsewhere:

    As a matter of fact, he [Pius IX] has already asked whether we could grant him asylum. I have no objection to it—Cologne or Fulda. It would be passing strange, but after all not so inexplicable, and it would be very useful to us to be recognised by Catholics as what we really are, that is to say, the sole power now existing that is capable of protecting the head of their Church. [...] But the King [William I] will not consent. He is terribly afraid. He thinks all Prussia would be perverted and he himself would be obliged to become a Catholic. I told him, however, that if the Pope begged for asylum he could not refuse it. He would have to grant it as ruler of ten million Catholic subjects who would desire to see the head of their Church protected.[10]

    He also reports:

    Bucher brings me from upstairs instructions and material for a Rome despatch for the Kölnische Zeitung. It runs as follows: "Rumours have already been circulated on various occasions to the effect that the Pope intends to leave Rome. According to the latest of these the Council, which was adjourned in the summer, will be reopened at another place, some persons mentioning Malta and others Trient. [...] Doubtless the main object of this gathering will be to elicit from the assembled fathers a strong declaration in favour of the necessity of the Temporal Power. Obviously a secondary object of this Parliament of Bishops, convoked away from Rome, would be to demonstrate to Europe that the Vatican does not enjoy the necessary liberty, although the Act of Guarantee proves that the Italian Government, in its desire for reconciliation and its readiness to meet the wishes of the Curia, has actually done everything that lies in its power."[11]


    1.^ a b c d e KIRCH, K. (1913). "Vatican Council". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
    2.^ a b c d Encyclopaedia Britannica: First Vatican Council
    3.^ a b First Vatican Council (1869-1870)
    4.^ a b Catholic Encyclopaedia: Vatican Council
    5.^ a b c d e Encyclopaedia Britannica: Pius IX
    6.^ McBrien, Richard P. (1995). The HarperCollins encyclopedia of Catholicism. HarperCollins. p. 1297.
    7.^ Lacoste, Jean-Yves (2004). "Vatican I, Council of". Encyclopedia of Christian Theology. New York: Routledge. p. 1666. ISBN 1-57958-250-8.
    8.^ Roberto De Mattei, John Laughland, Pius IX, page 137
    9.^ "Encarta Encyclopedia: First Vatican Council". Archived from the original on 31 October 2009.
    10.^ Moritz Busch Bismarck: Some secret pages of his history, Vol. I, Macmillan (1898) p. 220, entry for 8 November 1870
    11.^ Moritz Busch Bismarck: Some secret pages of his history, Vol. II, Macmillan (1898) pp.43-44, entry for 3 March 1872


    The Last Days of Papal Rome by Raffaele De Cesare (1909) London, Archibald Constable & Co.
    De Mattei, Roberto; John Laughland (2004). Pius IX. Leominster: Gracewing Publishing. ISBN 978-0-85244-605-8.
    Hasler, August (1981). How the Pope Became Infallible: Pius IX and the Politics of Persuasion. Doubleday.
    Prusak, Bernard (2004). The Church Unfinished: Ecclesiology through the Centuries. New York: Paulist Press. ISBN 978-0-8091-4286-6.
    The Catholic Church in the Modern World by E.E.Y. Hales (Doubleday, 1958)

    The Second Vatican Council (Latin: Concilium Oecumenicum Vaticanum Secundum or informally known as Vatican II) addressed relations between the Roman Catholic Church and the modern world. It was the twenty-first Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church and the second to be held at Saint Peter's Basilica in the Vatican. The council, through the Holy See, formally opened under the pontificate of Pope John XXIII on 11 October 1962 and closed under Pope Paul VI on 8 December 1965.

    Of those who took part in the council's opening session, four have become pontiffs to date: Cardinal Giovanni Battista Montini, who on succeeding Pope John XXIII took the name of Paul VI; Bishop Albino Luciani, the future Pope John Paul I; Bishop Karol Wojtyła, who became Pope John Paul II; and Father Joseph Ratzinger, present as a theological consultant, who became Pope Benedict XVI.[2][3][4]

    Currently, the questioned validity of the Second Vatican Council continues to be a contending point for religious communities who are not in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.[5] In particular, two schools of thought may be discerned:

    Traditionalist Catholics, who claim that the modernising reforms that resulted both directly or indirectly from the council consequently brought detrimental effects and indifference to the customs, beliefs, and pious practices of the Church before 1962. In addition, the doctrinal contradiction of the council in comparison to earlier papal statements regarding faith, morals and doctrine declared prior to the council itself. [6]

    The Sedevacantists faithful who assert that since there are no dogmatic definitions in the documents of the council, such documents are not infallible, hence not canonically binding for faithful Roman Catholics, most notably when such concilliar documents give way to the loose implementation of longstanding upheld Catholic doctrine previously sanctioned by former Popes prior to 1962. [7]


    During the 1950s, theological and biblical studies of the Catholic Church had begun to sway away from the neo-scholasticism and biblical literalism that the reaction to Catholic modernism had enforced since the First Vatican Council.[citation needed] This shift could be seen in theologians such as Karl Rahner, SJ, Michael Herbert, and John Courtney Murray, SJ who looked to integrate modern human experience with church principles based on Jesus Christ, as well as others such as Yves Congar, Joseph Ratzinger and Henri de Lubac who looked to an accurate understanding of scripture and the early Church Fathers as a source of renewal (or ressourcement).

    At the same time, the world's bishops faced tremendous challenges driven by political, social, economic, and technological change. Some of these bishops sought new ways of addressing those challenges. The First Vatican Council had been held nearly a century before but had been cut short when the Italian Army entered the city of Rome at the end of Italian unification. As a result, only deliberations on the role of the Papacy and the congruent relationship of faith and reason were completed, with examination of pastoral issues concerning the direction of the Church left unaddressed.[8][9]

    Pope John XXIII, however, gave notice of his intention to convene the Council on 25 January 1959, less than three months after his election in October 1958.[10] This sudden announcement, which caught the Curia by surprise, caused little initial official comment from Church insiders. Reaction to the announcement was widespread and largely positive from both religious and secular leaders outside the Catholic Church,[11] and the council was formally summoned by the apostolic constitution Humanae Salutis on 25 December 1961.[12][13] In various discussions before the Council actually convened, Pope John often said that it was time to open the windows of the Church to let in some fresh air.[14] He invited other Christians, outside the Catholic Church, to send observers to the Council. Acceptances came from both the Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox churches.[15]


    Preparations for the Council took more than two years, and included work from 10 specialised commissions, people for mass media and Christian Unity, and a Central Commission for overall coordination. These groups, composed mostly of members of the Roman Curia, produced 987 proposed constituting sessions, making it the largest gathering in any council in church history. (This compares to Vatican I, where 737 attended, mostly from Europe.)[16] Attendance varied in later sessions from 2,100 to over 2,300. In addition, a varying number of periti (Latin: "experts") were available for theological consultation—a group that turned out to have a major influence as the council went forward. Seventeen Orthodox Churches and Protestant denominations sent observers.[2] More than three dozen representatives of other Christian communities were present at the opening session, and the number grew to nearly 100 by the end of the 4th Council Sessions.

    First period: 1962

    Pope John XXIII opened the Council on 11 October 1962 in a public session and read the declaration Gaudet Mater Ecclesia before the Council Fathers.

    13 October 1962 marked the initial working session of the Council. That day's agenda included the election for members of the ten conciliar commissions. Each would have sixteen elected and eight appointed members, and were expected to do most of the work of the Council.[17] It had been expected that the members of the preparatory commissions, where the Curia was heavily represented, would be confirmed as the majorities on the conciliar commissions.[18][19] Senior French Cardinal Achille Liénart addressed the Council, saying that the bishops could not intelligently vote for strangers. He asked that the vote be postponed to give all the bishops a chance to draw up their own lists. German Cardinal Josef Frings seconded that proposal, and the vote was postponed.[19] The very first meeting of the Council adjourned after only fifteen minutes.[20]

    What is needed at the present time is a new enthusiasm, a new joy and serenity of mind in the unreserved acceptance by all of the entire Christian faith, without forfeiting that accuracy and precision in its presentation which characterized the proceedings of the Council of Trent and the First Vatican Council. What is needed, and what everyone imbued with a truly Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit craves today, is that this doctrine shall be more widely known, more deeply understood, and more penetrating in its effects on men’s moral lives. What is needed is that this certain and immutable doctrine, to which the faithful owe obedience, be studied afresh and reformulated in contemporary terms. For this deposit of faith, or truths which are contained in our time-honored teaching is one thing; the manner in which these truths are set forth (with their meaning preserved intact) is something else. -Blessed Pope John XXIII (Opening address to the Council)


    The bishops met to discuss the membership of the commissions, along with other issues, both in national and regional groups, as well as in gatherings that were more informal. The schemata from the preparatory sessions were thrown out, and new ones were created.[2] When the council met on 16 October 1962, a new slate of commission members was presented and approved by the Council.[18] One important change was a significant increase in membership from Central and Northern Europe, instead of countries such as Spain or Italy. More than 100 bishops from Africa, Asia, and Latin America were Dutch or Belgian and tended to associate with the bishops from those countries. These groups were led by Cardinals Bernardus Johannes Alfrink of the Netherlands and Leo Suenens of Belgium.[21]


    After adjournment on 8 December, work began on preparations for the sessions scheduled for 1963. These preparations, however, were halted upon the death of Pope John XXIII on 3 June 1963, since an ecumenical council is automatically interrupted and suspended upon the death of the Pope who convened it, until the next Pope orders the council to be continued or dissolved.[22] Pope Paul VI was elected on 21 June 1963 and immediately announced that the Council would continue.[23]

    Second period: 1963

    In the months prior to the second period, Pope Paul VI worked to correct some of the problems of organization and procedure that had been discovered during the first period. This included inviting additional lay Catholic and non-Catholic observers, reducing the number of proposed schemata to seventeen (which were made more general, in keeping with the pastoral nature of the council) and later eliminating the requirement of secrecy surrounding general sessions.[23]

    Pope Paul's opening address on 29 September 1963 stressed the pastoral nature of the council, and set out four purposes for it:

    to define more fully the nature of the Church and the role of the bishop;
    to renew the Church;
    to restore unity among all Christians, including seeking pardon for Catholic contributions to separation;
    and to start a dialogue with the contemporary world.

    During this period, the bishops approved the constitution on the liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium) and the decree on the media of social communication (Inter Mirifica). Work went forward with the schemata on the Church, bishops and dioceses, and ecumenism. On 8 November 1963, Josef Frings criticized the Holy Office, and drew an articulate and impassioned defense by its Secretary, Alfredo Ottaviani. This exchange is often considered the most dramatic of the council (Cardinal Frings's theological adviser was the young Joseph Ratzinger, who would later as a Cardinal head the same department of the Holy See, and from 2005-13 be Pope Benedict XVI). The second period ended on December 4.

    Pope Paul VI

    Third period: 1964

    In the time between the second and third periods, the proposed schemata were further revised on the basis of comments from the council fathers. A number of topics were reduced to statements of fundamental propositions that could gain approval during the third period, with postconciliar commissions handling implementation of these measures. Eight religious and seven lay women observers were invited to the sessions of the third period, along with additional male lay observers.

    During this period, which began on 14 September 1964, the Council Fathers worked through a large volume of proposals. Schemata on ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio), the official view on Protestant and Eastern Orthodox "separated brethren", the Eastern Rite churches (Orientalium Ecclesiarum), and the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium) ′were approved and promulgated by the Pope′.

    Schemata on the life and ministry of priests and the missionary activity of the Church were rejected and sent back to commissions for complete rewriting. Work continued on the remaining schemata, in particular those on the Church in the modern world and the introduction of the concept of religious freedom. There was controversy over revisions of the decree on religious freedom and the failure to vote on it during the third period, but Pope Paul promised that this schema would be the first to be reviewed in the next period.

    Pope Paul closed the third period on November 21 by announcing a change in the Eucharistic fast and formally reaffirming Mary as "Mother of the Church".[24]

    Fourth period: 1965

    Eleven schemata remained unfinished at the end of the third period, and commissions worked to give them their final form. Schema 13, on the Church in the modern world, was revised by a commission that worked with the assistance of laymen.

    Pope Paul VI opened the last period of the Council on 14 September 1965 with the establishment of the Synod of Bishops. This more permanent structure was intended to preserve close cooperation of the bishops with the Pope after the council.

    The first business of the fourth period was the consideration of the decree on religious freedom, Dignitatis Humanae, one of the more controversial of the conciliar documents. The vote was 1,997 for to 224 against, a margin that widened even farther by the time the bishop's final signing of the decree. The principal work of the rest of the period was work on three documents, all of which were approved by the council fathers. The lengthened and revised pastoral constitution on the Church in the modern world, Gaudium et Spes, was followed by decrees on missionary activity, Ad Gentes and the ministry and life of priests, Presbyterorum Ordinis.

    The council also gave final approval to other documents that had been considered in earlier sessions. This included decrees on the pastoral office of bishops (Christus Dominus), the life of persons in religious orders (expanded and modified from earlier sessions, finally titled Perfectæ Caritatis), education for the priesthood (Optatam Totius), Christian education (Gravissimum Educationis), and the role of the laity (Apostolicam Actuositatem).

    One of the more controversial documents[citation needed] was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians.

    True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.[25]

    See also: Christian–Jewish reconciliation and Relations between Catholicism and Judaism

    A major event of the final days of the council was the act of Pope Paul and Orthodox Patriarch Athenagoras of a joint expression of regret for many of the past actions that had led up to the Great Schism between the western and eastern churches.

    "The old story of the Samaritan has been the model of the spirituality of the council" (Paul VI., address, Dec. 7): On 8 December, the Council was formally closed, with the bishops professing their obedience to the Council's decrees. To help carry forward the work of the Council, Pope Paul:
    had earlier formed a Papal Commission for the Media of Social Communication to assist bishops with the pastoral use of these media;
    declared a jubilee from 1 January to 26 May 1966 to urge all Catholics to study and accept the decisions of the council and apply them in spiritual renewal;
    changed in 1965 the title and procedures of the Holy Office, giving it the name of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as well as the titles and competences of other departments of the Roman curia;
    made permanent the secretariates for the Promotion of Christian Unity, for Non-Christian Religions, and for Non-Believers.[26]



    Perhaps the most famous and most influential product of the council is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.

    In its first chapter, titled "The Mystery of the Church," is the famous statement that "the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth.' This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him" (Lumen Gentium, Cool. The document immediately adds: "Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines."


    Sacrosanctum Concilium

    One of the first issues considered by the council, and the matter that had the most immediate effect on the lives of individual Catholics, was the revision of the liturgy. The central idea was that there ought to be greater lay participation in the liturgy. In the mid-1960s, permissions were granted to celebrate most of the Mass in vernacular languages, including the canon from 1967 onwards.[27]

    Neither the Second Vatican Council nor the subsequent revision of the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite: the official text of the Roman Missal, on which translations into vernacular languages are to be based, continues to be in Latin and it can still be used in the celebration.[28]

    Scripture and Divine Revelation

    Dei Verbum

    The council sought to revive the central role of Scripture in the theological and devotional life of the Church, building upon the work of earlier popes in crafting a modern approach to Scriptural analysis and interpretation. A new approach to interpretation was approved by the bishops. The Church was to continue to provide versions of the Bible in the "mother tongues" of the faithful, and both clergy and laity were to continue to make Bible study a central part of their lives. This affirmed the importance of Sacred Scripture as attested by Providentissimus Deus by Pope Leo XIII and the writings of the Saints, Doctors, and Popes throughout Church history but also approved historically conditioned interpretation of Scripture as presented in Pius XII's 1943 encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.


    The role of the bishops was brought into renewed prominence, especially when seen collectively, as a college that has succeeded to that of the apostles in teaching and governing the Church. This college was headed by the Pope.


    Post Vatican II history of the Catholic Church and Spirit of Vatican II

    "By the spirit of Vatican II" is meant to promote the teachings and intentions attributed to the Second Vatican Council in ways not limited to literal readings of its documents, but not in contradiction to the "letter" of the Council[29][30] (cf. Saint Paul's phrase, "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life").[31]

    The spirit of Vatican II is invoked for a great variety of ideas and attitudes. Bishop John Tong Hon of Hong Kong used it with regard merely to an openness to dialogue with others, saying: "We are guided by the spirit of Vatican II: only dialogue and negotiation can solve conflicts."[32]

    In contrast, Michael Novak described it as a spirit that "sometimes soared far beyond the actual, hard-won documents and decisions of Vatican II. ... It was as though the world (or at least the history of the Church) were now to be divided into only two periods, pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II. Everything 'pre' was then pretty much dismissed, so far as its authority mattered. For the most extreme, to be a Catholic now meant to believe more or less anything one wished to believe, or at least in the sense in which one personally interpreted it. One could be a Catholic 'in spirit'. One could take Catholic to mean the 'culture' in which one was born, rather than to mean a creed making objective and rigorous demands. One could imagine Rome as a distant and irrelevant anachronism, embarrassment, even adversary. Rome as 'them'."[33] Such views of the Second Vatican Council were condemned by the Church's hierarchy, and the works of theologians who were active in the Council or who closely adhered to the Council's aspect of reform (such as Hans Küng) have often been criticized by the Church for espousing a belief system that the hierarchy considers radical and misguided. As Dei Verbum reads, “Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on…”, Vatican II did not deny previous councils correctness.

    To mark the fiftieth anniversary of the beginning of Vatican II, in October 2011, the Vatican's website and many other Catholic news organizations announced that the Pope Benedict XVI, had made the period from October 2012 to the end of November 2013 (the Solemnity of Christ the King) a "Year Of Faith" in a solemn declaration, and ordered all parishes and religious institutions to find some manner during that Year of celebrating and reaffirming the Creed (there are now two main Creeds- the shorter Apostles' Creed and the lengthier Niceno-Constantinopolitan, or Nicene Creed. The Nicene creed is recited at each Mass, and both are listed and examined in the landmark 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church; they serve as fundamental declarations that a catechumen or a baptized Catholic identifies with the Church).


    1.^ David M. Cheney. "Second Vatican Council". Catholic-Hierarchy. Retrieved 2011-05-18.
    2.^ a b c Faculty of Catholic University of America, ed. (1967). "Vatican Council II". New Catholic Encyclopedia XIV (1 ed.). New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 563. OCLC 34184550.
    3.^ Alberigo, Giuseppe; Sherry, Matthew (2006). A Brief History of Vatican II. Maryknoll: Orbis Books. p. 69. ISBN 1-57075-638-4.
    4.^ Father Georg Ratzinger: Pope Benedict XVI: A Profile: an EWTN documentary - Doug Keck, Executive Producer
    7.^ Therefore Vatican II should be re-examined to determine what in its documents is in line with the Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church ("sacred Tradition" in Wikipedia), and what does not adequately convey Roman Catholic doctrine. Representatives of this school of thought include Brunero Gherardini, who in 2009 petitioned the Pope for a review of Vatican II; Paolo Pasqualucci, who with other scholars subscribed Gherardini's petition; Roberto de Mattei, who wrote a history of CVII ("Il Concilio Vaticano II. Una storia mai scritta")
    8.^ Bokenkotter, Thomas (2005). A Concise History of the Catholic Church. New York: Image. p. 337. ISBN 0-385-51613-4.
    9.^ Hahnenberg, Edward (2007). A Concise Guide to the Documents of Vatican II. City: Saint Anthony Messenger Press. p. 44. ISBN 0-86716-552-9.
    10.^ Alberigo, Giuseppe; Sherry, Matthew (2006). A Brief History of Vatican II. Maryknoll: Orbis Books. p. 1. ISBN 1-57075-638-4.
    11.^ Alberigo, Giuseppe; Sherry, Matthew (2006). A Brief History of Vatican II. Maryknoll: Orbis Books. pp. 4–7. ISBN 1-57075-638-4.
    12.^ "Vatican II: 40 years later". National Catholic Register.[dead link]
    13.^ "1961".[dead link]
    14.^ Sullivan, Maureen (2002). 101 Questions and Answers on Vatican II. New York: Paulist Press. p. 17. ISBN 0-8091-4133-7.
    15.^ Sullivan, Maureen (2002). 101 Questions and Answers on Vatican II. New York: Paulist Press. p. 21. ISBN 0-8091-4133-7. There has been speculation that the Vatican somehow assured the Russian Orthodox Church that Communism and the Soviet State were topics that would not be raised at the Council. However, in chapter IV, The External Climate (Albiergo, The History of Vatican II, Vol. 1, p. 404), J.O. Beozzo states that the real issue was the desire of the Russian Orthodox to be invited directly, instead of through the Ecumenical Patriarch in Turkey.
    16.^ Sullivan, Maureen (2002). 101 Questions and Answers on Vatican II. New York: Paulist Press. p. 21. ISBN 0-8091-4133-7.
    17.^ Bokenkotter, Thomas (2005). A Concise History of the Catholic Church. New York: Image. p. 413. ISBN 0-385-51613-4.
    18.^ a b Alberigo, Giuseppe; Sherry, Matthew (2006). A Brief History of Vatican II. Maryknoll: Orbis Books. p. 24. ISBN 1-57075-638-4.
    19.^ a b Sullivan, Maureen (2002). 101 Questions and Answers on Vatican II. New York: Paulist Press. p. 27. ISBN 0-8091-4133-7.
    20.^ Hahnenberg, Edward (2007). A Concise Guide to the Documents of Vatican II. City: Saint Anthony Messenger Press. p. 4. ISBN 0-86716-552-9.
    21.^ Sullivan, Maureen (2002). 101 Questions and Answers on Vatican II. New York: Paulist Press. p. 28. ISBN 0-8091-4133-7.
    22.^ "CIC can. 340 - Code of Canon Law". Retrieved 2012-07-01.
    23.^ a b Faculty of Catholic University of America, ed. (1967). "Vatican Council II". New Catholic Encyclopedia XIV. New York: McGraw-Hill. pp. 565–566. OCLC 34184550.
    24.^ Faculty of Catholic University of America, ed. (1967). "Vatican Council II". New Catholic Encyclopedia XIV. New York: McGraw-Hill. pp. 566–567. OCLC 34184550.
    25.^ Pope Paul VI (1965-10-28). Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-christian religions - Nostra Aetate. Holy See. Retrieved 2009-01-01.
    26.^ Faculty of Catholic University of America, ed. (1967). "Vatican Council II". New Catholic Encyclopedia XIV. New York: McGraw-Hill. pp. 567–568. OCLC 34184550.
    27.^ Historically speaking, "Latin Mass" could be applied also to the various forms of Pre-Tridentine Mass from about the year 370, when, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica Online, the Church in Rome changed from Greek to Latin.
    28.^ "Except in the case of celebrations of the Mass that are scheduled by the ecclesiastical authorities to take place in the language of the people, Priests are always and everywhere permitted to celebrate Mass in Latin." (Redemptionis sacramentum, 112).
    29.^ "James Hitchcock, The History of Vatican II, Lecture 6: The Effects of Council Part II". Retrieved 2012-07-01.
    30.^ Avery Dulles, Vatican II: The Myth and the Reality
    31.^ 2 Corinthians 3:6
    32.^ Gheddo, Piero. "Gianni Criveller, Bishop John Tong of Hong Kong, "man of dialogue," but with "non-negotiable principles"". Retrieved 2012-07-01.
    33.^ "Introduction to The Open Church (Millennium Edition)". 2003-11-24. Retrieved 2012-07-01.

    Further reading

    Kelly, Joseph F. (2009). The Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church: a History. Collegeville: Liturgical Press. ISBN 0-8146-5376-6.
    Orsy, Ladislas (2009). Receiving the Council: Theological and Canonical Insights and Debates. Collegeville: Liturgical Press. ISBN 0-8146-5377-4.
    O'Malley, John W. (2008). What Happened at Vatican II. Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-03169-2.
    Bühren, Ralf van (2008). Kunst und Kirche im 20. Jahrhundert. Die Rezeption des Zweiten Vatikanischen Konzils (in German). Paderborn: Schöningh. ISBN 978-3-506-76388-4.
    Bredeck, Michael (2007). Das Zweite Vatikanum als Konzil des Aggiornamento : zur hermeneutischen Grundlegung einer theologischen Konzilsinterpretation (in German). Paderborn: Schöningh. ISBN 978-3-506-76317-4.
    Linden, Ian (2009). Global Catholicism: diversity and change since Vatican II. 41 Great Russell St, London: Hurst and Co. p. 337. ISBN 978-1-85065-957-0.
    Sinke Guimarães, Atila (1997). In the Murky Waters of Vatican II. Metairie: MAETA. ISBN 1-889168-06-8.
    Amerio, Romano (1996). Iota Unum. Kansas City: Sarto House. ISBN 0-9639032-1-7.
    Gherardini, Brunero (2011). Sull'indole pastorale del Vaticano II: una valutazione. In: Concilio Vaticano II, un concilio pastorale. Analisi storico-filosofico-teologica, ed. Serafino Lanzetta. Frigento, Italy: Casa Mariana Editrice. ISBN 978-88-905611-2-2.
    Likoudis, James (2006). The Pope, the Council, and the Mass. Emmaus Road Publishing. ISBN 978-1-931018-34-0.
    Il Vaticano II. Alle radici d'un equivoco, by Brunero Gherardini (Torino:Lindau 2012) ISBN 978-88-7180-994-6

    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:33 am; edited 13 times in total

    Posts : 1280
    Join date : 2012-06-17

    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  magamud on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:21 pm

    The three you are in conflict is due to your relation to consciousness. There is one. The disposition is due to understanding power. In general power becomes divided. You, your external mana and Gods. This is an example on how parasitic gods use man. In essence they use your energy for their own reality. Selfish creatures...

    Posts : 7957
    Join date : 2010-09-28

    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:51 pm

    Thank-you magamud. Power seems to be Illusory in many ways. I suspect that it's not what it's cracked-up to be. If my theories are correct, one aspect of this really worries me -- whether this whole solar system mess was an unforeseen accident -- or if it was foreseen and planned for. In other words -- what if the War in Heaven was (and is) an Archangelic False-Flag -- specifically designed to Cleanse the Sanctuary of That Which Defiles?? Which possibility would be more vindicating or more damning -- for all concerned???? This might ultimately be one of the most important (if not the most important) questions of all. I think all of us should spend a lot of quality time with Theoretical-Theology -- but please base this upon a careful study of Theology As We Know It. This stuff scares the hell out of me. It is absolutely terrifying. What Would Monseigneur Bowe Say???
    magamud wrote:Im just talking straight to you Oxy because you deserve it. You project Genocide when you dont know the relation of Death to life. You do not die. Your energy transforms. We are trying to earn our existence in this Flesh. Without this knowledge the harvest or the Orobourus sounds arbitrary. When in fact its Mercy. Shall our species continue in Devolution? Shall we continue to be on life support? You and everyone here should be commending themselves to be at the End. ITs a tribute to your constitution. You are learning what is Gods plan.

    Jesus is part of humanity. Prophets are part of the same system. This is just the real evolution of man and his sovereign place in Consciousness! This is the justice of the universe. Everyone knows it. Don Juan, Osho, Buddha, Krishna, etc etc etc. It all comes back to the One law the loving god of creation.

    Jesus allowed himself to be murdered by man, so he could resurrect and show the power of man. That man has nothing over you, but the one who can forgive sin does. This was to show the tale of man and the harvest.

    Original sin had to happen if you want to be in flesh and sovereign. God did not forsake us. You will sin as long as you do not know god. Your soul is not eternally dammed. You will be pissed that the signs were in front of your nose and you did not see it, but you will get over it. Take a vacation and try it again. Life goes on...

    Instead of sacrificing our Sin we sacrifice others to bridge the gap. This is the nature of our species and existence. It is because we are made in his image. We are so close to him that it creates radical passion in us. Sexual disfunction is just one expression of our devolution. We were made to populate the earth! Everything in moderation. Everything balanced. The Road is narrow!

    Jesus left because he showed Gods power. What more could anyone need to know at that time. IF jesus stuck around it would have created Co-dependence and you would not have been sovereign. This is the meaning of what faith is and why we use it. This is a blessing for our own individuality. Jesus has never left and has prepared the way for the Creator to remind us of his laws. Jesus has prepared a seat next to him during his physical absence. Jesus is care taking the burning now. Nothing wrong with this picture from here. Thank God....

    Thank-you magamud for clearing that up for me. I have a couple of study-lists which will help me get a better understanding of these issues and concepts. I think I need to just read and read and read -- and let go of a lot of the rest of what I've been doing. BTW -- I'm winding this thread down because I'm running out of posting space. Continue to post on this thread for another week or so -- and I will respond -- but I'm transferring a condensed and edited version of this thread to the United States of the Solar System -- Archangelic Queens of Heaven -- and the University of Solar System Studies and Governance thread. It's going to take a lot of time and effort to transfer and edit this thread -- so I'm going to try to concentrate on doing just that. Then, I might try to write some sort of a sci-fi novel (which would probably be much different than this thread). I need to figure out a way to generate some revenue. I am getting more and more uncomfortable with my line of thinking -- so I probably need to give it a rest. There's a time and a place for everything -- and my time has probably come and gone -- without me even realizing it. You all seem to be doing just fine without me -- so perhaps it's time to move on -- in more ways than one. Perhaps I should just watch the infowar and the god-off. Perhaps I should prepare to clean-up the mess when it's over. Perhaps I should simply hold the coats. Perhaps it is time for me to get Sirius.
    orthodoxymoron wrote:
    Carol wrote:Oxy - have you considered the possibility of being fear-based isn't very fun. Long ago when living in a threatening situation one day I woke up and realized I'd had enough and ended the situation so I wouldn't have to live in fear. And putting faith in the Divine, trusting in the Divine and know that the Divine has our best interest at heart helped to move beyond fear. In addition, when fear popped up with ET showing up, it was anger that shoved fear away. You can call upon Divine help for protection as well. Or just make up your mind that you don't want to live in fear. Music also is a tool to raise one's vibration to move out of fear. Frankly - living in fear sucks. Been there, did that, walked away. You're a sovereign being. Choose instead to dwell on the positive (beauty, simplicity, friends/family, nature, uplifting music, inspirational writing, good nuturing food and chocolate). Enjoy the gifts that are laid out before you and make your goal to be happy irrespecitive of what is going on out in the world.
    Carol, I thought your title for this thread "No Bank Deposits Will Be Spared from Confiscation" sounded a bit "fear-based" -- so I guess I was just trying to fit-in. Most people seem to love fear. They pay significant amounts of money to participate in fear. Most people act as if it is TRUTH which SUCKS. Honesty does NOT seem to be the best policy in this particular solar system. Try being an honest lawyer -- an honest politician -- an honest priest -- an honest journalist -- etc, etc, etc. I'm really, really close to going into a happier and more successful than thou mode -- whether it reflects reality, or not. What Would Peale and Schuller Say?? "Fake it, till you make it!!"?? "The me that I see, is the me that I'll be!!"?? Honestly, Schuller's books work really well when read in nature -- without the booming voice of Robert H. Schuller -- or the flashy Crystal Cathedral!! "I can choose to be happy anyway!!" I've tried to be honest about scary things within this website -- and look where it's gotten me. Why would anyone in their right mind try to tell people what they do NOT wish to hear?! That's probably the Epitome of Stupidity!! They don't call me a Completely Ignorant Fool for nothing. Perhaps I should lick my internet-wounds -- and turn my "scars into stars". Perhaps I should turn my mountains of fear-based writing into goldmines!! Perhaps I can get that Porsche 911 Turbo after-all!! Perhaps then I can do that "On the Beach" scene on Highway 101 -- in style -- as that devil-baby piloted asteroid hits the Pacific Ocean -- and the excrement hits the turbocharger. Perhaps I could drive as if the Jesuits were chasing me in a sport-model ufo!!! What Would Silas Say?? Oh -- I Forgot -- He's Opus Dei...
    I keep thinking that everything is built upon lies -- some white and some black -- but lies, just the same. When people lose their money -- they lose it. You can tell them about all of the crazy stuff we research and discuss -- but most are too busy doing reasonable activities to take the time, effort, and pain required to "get-it". I've wasted my life away in a very passive quest -- and I still don't really "get-it". I fear that everything is a house of cards -- and once reality really starts sinking into people's awareness -- there might be a chain-reaction -- which might be quite violent and destructive. I keep thinking that everything going on here has everything to do with ancient star wars in heaven and earth -- who won -- and who rules behind the scenes. I'm becoming so frightened of the possibilities, that I can barely function. I caught someone snooping around my house last night -- and they gave a very lame excuse. I've been posting a lot of upsetting material lately -- particularly regarding a couple of angels and groups -- and I suspect that they'd like to see me gone -- in one way or another -- even though I have been rather quiet and polite. I've promised to just post on this site -- and otherwise remain mostly silent -- but that probably doesn't matter to some. Anyway, if someone gives me reasonable reasons to not post certain things -- I will be reasonably receptive and compliant. I have tried to understand all sides of all issues I have studied -- and I try to be fair -- probably too fair and understanding. So, even if you don't like what I post -- I might be your best-buddy in the long-run. It's probably good to have a few people around who try to be on everyone's side all the time. I'd still like to do Galactic Quantum Diplomacy in another life! Some of you know what I'm talking about! I'm beginning to rethink everything I've considered over the past several years -- without heaping more and more portions on my already full plate. I guess I'll just internally model ONE approach (USSS) to dealing with the obvious mess we're all in -- while playing pinball in my mostly comotose state!! Here is yet another variation on the study-list theme. Namaste and Have a Nice Day!

    1. The Torah, Psalms, Proverbs, and Gospels.
    2. The 1928 Book of Common Prayer (Including the Traditional 1928 Liturgy).
    3. Sacred Classical Music (Including Gregorian Chant and Organ Improvisation).
    4. Desire of Ages by Ellen G. White.
    5. Life of Christ by Fulton Sheen.
    6. Federalist Papers.
    7. Astronomy Textbooks.

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    Re: Archangelic Queens of Heaven and the United States of the Solar System

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