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    The Hidden Story of Jesus

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    orthodoxymoron

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    The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Sat May 28, 2011 10:37 pm

    Here is an eleven-part documentary called 'The Hidden Story of Jesus'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mlf8CIHCBo&feature=related As most of you know, all too well, I am currently attempting to integrate the Teachings of Jesus, the U.S. Constitution, the Latin Mass, and Sacred Classical Music. Would this conceptual integration survive the implications and ramifications of this documentary? Would this basic framework be something which most nations and religions could comfortably participate in? Is the real problem the abuses and absurdities of the past two thousand years? If I'm wrong, what might be a proper foundation for religious and political unity - without coercion or persecution? How should we properly unite as a human family? Should we even try to unite? What about the Dracs, Greys, and Hybrids? Are they people too? What would Isis say? Is Jesus a Christian? Does Jesus go to church? Did Jesus tell people to go to church? One more thing. Take another look at 'The Ring of Power' in light of 'The Hidden Story of Jesus'. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4675077383139148549# Is Jesus 'The Prince of Peace' or did Jesus bring a sword? Does Christianity have the following image in many parts of the world?
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Tue May 31, 2011 11:41 am

    Just keep working outward from the word 'RESPONSIBILITY' -- with idealistic forms of politics and religion -- and things should eventually fall into place -- if things don't fall apart before we have a chance to put Humpty Dumpty back together again...


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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Tue May 31, 2011 4:16 pm

    The 'Law of Confusion' is a descriptive and appropriate term...but I tend to eschew obfuscation...and to espouse elucidation. A Christocentric eschatological theological approach to scriptural studies which utilizes the concept of comprehensive concentration...which assumes the red-letter teachings of Jesus as being fundamental...with the remaining portions of the biblical canon as being merely contextual...cross-referencing utilizing a Strong's Concordance...and applying the accepted norms of grammatical-historical hermeneutics...is supremely beneficial regarding definitively and devotionally ascertaining the Christ Conscious Aspects of the First Source and Center of All Things...to fully experience Jesus as Lord in modernity...being careful to exegete...rather than eisegetically twisting and corrupting the sacred texts to conform to canon law (there is no substantial body of evidence which substantiates transubstantiation)...so as not to become a reprehensible and reprobate hermeneutic whore...a cursed Judas Iscariot in dire need of prostrate penetance, confession, repentance, and reconciliation...and in grave danger of burning for all eternity as a sinner in the hands of an angry God. World Without End. Amen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAHxyD3KLc&feature=related
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:58 am

    Has anyone read 'Jesus - Last of the Pharaohs' by Ralph Ellis? Or 'The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ' by Gerald Massey? What about 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus' by Albert Schweitzer? Or 'Jesus in the House of the Pharaohs' by Ahmed Osman? Has anyone considered the work of the 'Jesus Seminar'? What if the biblical-historical Jesus never existed, but what if a very different (and in many ways superior) actual historical Jesus (or equivalent) really did (and does) exist? I'm conceptually considering a demythologized Michael / Horus / Mithras / ????? / Jesus / ????? who might be archangelic / pharonic / artistic / scientific / technological / funny / sexy!!! What if Jesus has always been here? What if Jesus never left? What if Jesus has been reincarnating over and over in this solar system for hundreds of thousands of years? What if Jesus has been sacrificing on behalf of humanity for hundreds of thousands of years? This subject might be extremely important. What did the Vatican know, and when did they know it? There's a cancer growing on the Papacy! And what about the Monarchy? Should the Mass celebrate and commemorate the sacrifice of humanity (for hundreds of thousands of years?) in it's pursuit of responsible-freedom in the context of male and female human physicality, rather than being the repeated unbloody human-sacrfice of Jesus Christ? One more thing. Don't forget the dozens of Fragmentary Extra-Canonical Gospels and Reports of the Life and Times of Jesus Christ. I don't get hung-up on the historical or mythical names. It's a particular soul who is a deity of interest to me! I need to stop.
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:06 am

    This is an amazing interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVwKKsvtdag&feature=player_embedded All roads really do lead to Rome, and I continue to think that everything we discuss should be viewed from the Roman context. I continue to imagine myself as being a well-connected Renegade French Jesuit Organist. I continue to love the artistic aspects of Rome, but the history, theology, and politics are horrible, and I'm sure that most upper-level and well-informed Roman Catholics know this, but they have a Dragon by the Tail, and they are probably terrified of what might happen if they let go. As the general public finds out about all of this, things could get very, very nasty. I'm interested in this area of research, but it scares the hell out of me. I'm trying to be open and fair in all of this, and I'm trying to look at both the positive and negatives in all of this. All roads lead to Rome, but where did all of these roads originate?

    My present working assumption is that the solar system probably contains thousands of unconventional craft, including asteroid and moon spacecraft, which might be friendly or unfriendly toward the human race. I get the feeling that this solar system is like the wild, wild west -- and that we might be facing a showdown at the ok corral. I certainly do not desire peace at any price, nor do I desire to end-up as space-dust. What would Anna Hayes say? I'd still like to hang-out on Phobos for a while, regardless of whether it is populated by friend or foe. But I would have to have a solid guarantee that I wouldn't be harmed or kidnapped. I still like the idea of a Theocratically-Implemented, Responsibility-Based, United States of the Solar System -- with the governmental personnel mostly located within the University of Solar System Studies and Governance campuses throughout the solar system. I've spoken of using a deconsecrated cathedral as the headquarters of a New Solar System, so just for the fun of it, today I'm thinking of either the Crystal Cathedral or St. Mary's Cathedral (or both!!) as being the headquarters, with the University of California system serving as the core of the University of Solar System Studies and Governance system. Again, this is just for the conceptual heck of it. This is a test. This is only a test. And yes, I realize that I am insane, but it's more fun that way! The UC system has solid ties to the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and to the Los Alamos National Laboratory. I don't wish to reinvent the wheel. I just wish to have 10,000 PhD's with clipboards and safety-goggles, watching it rotate... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California


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    TRANCOSO

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  TRANCOSO on Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:33 pm

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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:01 pm

    That was funny! What if the Biblical Historical Jesus is a cunningly devised fable, designed to hide a vastly superior Michael / Horus / Jesus who is strong, sophisticated, and sensual -- rather than being a simple and sexually-repressed crucified weakling? Once again, I have my theories, regardless of whether I can prove them or not. I will continue to test various theories in the context of Historical Science Fictional Solar System Governance, and I refuse to take this too seriously. Someone might be able to glean some bit of insight which might help them in their serious academic Quest of the Historical Horus...
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    Simplicity

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  Simplicity on Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:15 pm

    @Trancoso..... ...enjoyed that, thx!

    Oxy....I'm currently watching bits of the Red Ice radio interview with Santos Bonacci
    . Sorry, my attention span is not an hour long so I'm listening in bits :) Currently I'm looking into astrology and recognizing its piece in the puzzle. So far, Santos lines up pretty much with where I am.....
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:26 pm

    I really liked that interview.
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:06 am

    If you really want to have smoke pour out of your ears, consider reading the entire text of 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus' by Dr. Albert Schweitzer. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/schweitzer/ But really, the first and last chapters should be required reading for those who are serious about theology and philosophy, regardless of their biases and convictions. As I have stated previously, someone got into my computer, and made certain portions of the Schweitzer text appear in Bold Print. But not as shown below. This was really strange. I like Albert Schweitzer, and I like his organ teacher, Charles Marie Widor. St. Sulpice in Paris, is sort of a Personal Mecca for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYBTg3CV3DQ&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2A63EBD15866B4D7

    THE PROBLEM: WHEN, AT SOME FUTURE DAY, OUR PERIOD OF CIVILISATION SHALL LIE, closed and completed, before the eyes of later generations, German theology will stand out as a great, a unique phenomenon in the mental and spiritual life of our time. For nowhere save in the German temperament can there be found in the same perfection the living complex of conditions and factors — of philosophic thought, critical acumen, historical insight, and religious feeling — without which no deep theology is possible.

    And the greatest achievement of German theology is the critical investigation of the life of Jesus. What it has accomplished here has laid down the conditions and determined the course of the religious thinking of the future.

    In the history of doctrine its work has been negative; it has, so to speak, cleared the site for a new edifice of religious thought. In describing how the ideas of Jesus were taken possession of by the Greek spirit, it was tracing the growth of that which must necessarily become strange to us, and, as a matter of fact, has become strange to us.

    Of its efforts to create a new dogmatic we scarcely need to have the history written; it is alive within us. It is no doubt interesting to trace how modern thoughts have found their way into the ancient dogmatic system, there to combine with eternal ideas to form new constructions; it is interesting to penetrate into the mind of the thinker in which this process is at work; but the real truth of that which here meets us as history we experience within ourselves. As in the monad of Leibnitz the whole universe is reflected, so we intuitively experience within us, even apart from any clear historical knowledge, the successive stages of the progress of modern dogma, from rationalism to Ritschl. This experience is true knowledge, all the truer because we are conscious of the whole as something indefinite, a slow and difficult movement towards a goal which is still shrouded in obscurity. We have not yet arrived at any reconciliation between history and modern thought — only between half-way history and half-way thought. What the ultimate goal towards which we are moving will be, what this something is which shall bring new life and new regulative principles to coming centuries, we do not know. We can only dimly divine that it will be the mighty deed of some mighty original genius, whose truth and rightness will be proved by the fact that we, working at our poor half thing, will oppose him might and main — we who imagine we long for nothing more eagerly than a genius powerful enough to open up with authority a new path for the world, seeing that we cannot succeed in moving it forward along the track which we have so laboriously prepared.

    For this reason the history of the critical study of the life of Jesus is of higher intrinsic value than the history of the study of ancient dogma or of the attempts to create a new one. It has to describe the most tremendous thing which the religious consciousness has ever dared and done. In the study of the history of dogma German theology settled its account with the past; in its attempt to create a new dogmatic, it was endeavouring to keep a place for the religious life in the thought of the present; in the study of the life of Jesus it was working for the future — in pure faith in the truth, not seeing whereunto it wrought.

    Moreover, we are here dealing with the most vital thing in the world's history. There came a Man to rule over the world; He ruled it for good and for ill, as history testifies; He destroyed the world into which He was born; the spiritual life of our own time seems like to perish at His hands, for He leads to battle against our thought a host of dead ideas, a ghostly army upon which death has no power, and Himself destroys again the truth and goodness which His Spirit creates in us, so that it cannot rule the world. That He continues, notwithstanding, to reign as the alone Great and alone True in a world of which He denied the continuance, is the prime example of that antithesis between spiritual and natural truth which underlies all life and all events, and in Him emerges into the field of history.

    It is only at first sight that the absolute indifference of early Christianity towards the life of the historical Jesus is disconcerting. When Paul, representing those who recognise the signs of the times, did not desire to know Christ after the flesh, that was the first expression of the impulse of self-preservation by which Christianity continued to be guided for centuries. It felt that with the introduction of the historic Jesus into its faith, there would arise something new, something which had not been foreseen in the thoughts of the Master Himself, and that thereby a contradiction would be brought to light, the solution of which would constitute one of the great problems of the world.

    Primitive Christianity was therefore right to live wholly in the future with the Christ who was to come, and to preserve of the historic Jesus only detached sayings, a few miracles, His death and resurrection. By abolishing both the world and the historical Jesus it escaped the inner division described above, and remained consistent in its point of view. We, on our part, have reason to be grateful to the early Christians that, in consequence of this attitude they have handed down to us, not biographies of Jesus but only Gospels, and that therefore we possess the Idea and the Person with the minimum of historical and contemporary limitations.

    But the world continued to exist, and its continuance brought this one-sided view to an end. The supra-mundane Christ and the historical Jesus of Nazareth had to be brought together into a single personality at once historical and raised above time. That was accomplished by Gnosticism and the Logos Christology. Both, from opposite standpoints, because they were seeking the same goal, agreed in sublimating the his- torical Jesus into the supra-mundane Idea. The result of this development, which followed on the discrediting of eschatology, was that the historical Jesus was again introduced into the field of view of Christianity, but in such a way that all justification for, and interest in, the investigation of His life and historical personality were done away with.

    Greek theology was as indifferent in regard to the historical Jesus who lives concealed in the Gospels as was the early eschatological theology. More than that, it was dangerous to Him; for it created a new supernatural-historical Gospel, and we may consider it fortunate that the Synoptics were already so firmly established that the Fourth Gospel could not oust them; instead, the Church, as though from the inner necessity of the antitheses which now began to be a constructive element in her thought, was obliged to set up two antithetic Gospels alongside of one another.

    When at Chalcedon the West overcame the East, its doctrine of the two natures dissolved the unity of the Person, and thereby cut off the last possibility of a return to the historical Jesus. The self-contradiction was elevated into a law. But the Manhood was so far admitted as to preserve, in appearance, the rights of history. Thus by a deception the formula kept the life prisoner and prevented the leading spirits of the Reformation from grasping the idea of a return to the historical Jesus.

    This dogma had first to be shattered before men could once more go out in quest of the historical Jesus, before they could even grasp the thought of His existence. That the historic Jesus is something different from the Jesus Christ of the doctrine of the Two Natures seems to us now self-evident. We can, at the present day, scarcely imagine the long agony in which the historical view of the life of Jesus came to birth. And even when He was once more recalled to life. He was still, like Lazarus of old, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes — the grave-clothes of the dogma of the Dual Nature. Hase relates, in the preface to his first Life of Jesus (1829), that a worthy old gentleman, hearing of his project, advised him to treat in the first part of the human, in the second of the divine Nature. There was a fine simplicity about that. But does not the simplicity cover a presentiment of the revolution of thought for which the historical method of study was preparing the way — a presentiment which those who were engaged in the work did not share in the same measure? It was fortunate that they did not; for otherwise how could they have had the courage to go on?

    The historical investigation of the life of Jesus did not take its rise from a purely historical interest; it turned to the Jesus of history as an ally in the struggle against the tyranny of dogma. Afterwards when it was freed from this paqoV it sought to present the historic Jesus in a form intelligible to its own time. For Bahrdt and Venturini He was the tool of a secret order. They wrote under the impression of the immense influence exercised by the Order of the Illuminati[1] at the end of the eighteenth century. For Reinhard, Hess, Paulus, and the rest of the rationalistic writers He is the admirable revealer of true virtue, which is coincident with right reason. Thus each successive epoch of theology found its own thoughts in Jesus; that was, indeed, the only way in which it could make Him live.

    But it was not only each epoch that found its reflection in Jesus; each individual created Him in accordance with his own character. There is no historical task which so reveals a man's true self as the writing of a Life of Jesus. No vital force comes into the figure unless a man breathes into it all the hate or all the love of which he is capable. The stronger the love, or the stronger the hate, the more life-like is the figure which is produced. For hate as well as love can write a Life of Jesus, and the greatest of them are written with hate: that of Reimarus, the Wolfenbiittel Fragmentist, and that of David Friedrich Strauss. It was not so much hate of the Person of Jesus as of the supernatural nimbus with which it was so easy to surround Him, and with which He had in fact been surrounded. They were eager to picture Him as truly and purely human, to strip from Him the robes of splendour with which He had been apparelled, and clothe Him once more with the coarse garments in which He had walked in Galilee.

    And their hate sharpened their historical insight. They advanced the study of the subject more than all the others put together. But for the offence which they gave, the science of historical theology would not have stood where it does to-day. "It must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh." Reimarus evaded that woe by keeping the offence to himself and preserving silence during his lifetime — his work, "The Aims of Jesus and His Disciples," was only published after his death, by Lessing. But in the case of Strauss, who, as a young man of twenty-seven, cast the offence openly in the face of the world, the woe fulfilled itself. His "Life of Jesus" was his ruin. But he did not cease to be proud of it in spite of all the misfortune that it brought him. "I might well bear a grudge against my book," he writes twenty-five years later in the preface to the "Conversations of Ulrich von Hutten," [1] "for it has done me much evil ('And rightly so!' the pious will exclaim). It has excluded me from public teaching in which I took pleasure and for which I had perhaps some talent; it has torn me from natural relationships and driven me into unnatural ones; it has made my life a lonely one. And yet when I consider what it would have meant if I had refused to utter the word which lay upon my soul, if I had suppressed the doubts which were at work in my mind — then I bless the book which has doubtless done me grievous harm outwardly, but which preserved the inward health of my mind and heart, and, I doubt not, has done the same for many others also."

    Before him, Bahrdt had his career broken in consequence of revealing his beliefs concerning the Life of Jesus; and after him, Bruno Bauer.

    It was easy for them, resolved as they were to open the way even with seeming blasphemy. But the others, those who tried to bring Jesus to life at the call of love, found it a cruel task to be honest. The critical study of the life of Jesus has been for theology a school of honesty. The world had never seen before, and will never see again, a struggle for truth so full of pain and renunciation as that of which the Lives of Jesus of the last hundred years contain the cryptic record. One must lead the successive Lives of Jesus with which Hase followed the course of the study from the 'twenties to the 'seventies of the nineteenth century to get an inkling of what it must have cost the men who lived through that decisive period really to maintain that "courageous freedom of investigation" which the great Jena professor, in the preface to his first Life of Jesus, claims for his researches. One sees in him the marks of the struggle with which he gives up, bit by bit, things which, when he wrote that preface, he never dreamed he would have to surrender. It was fortunate for these men that their sympathies sometimes obscured their critical vision, so that, without becoming insincere, they were able to take white clouds for distant mountains. That was the kindly fate of Hase and Beyschlag. The personal character of the study is not only due, however, to the fact that a personality can only be awakened to life by the touch of a personality; it lies in the essential nature of the problem itself. For the problem of the life of Jesus has no analogue in the field of history. No historical school has ever laid down canons for the investigation of this problem, no professional historian has ever lent his aid to theology in dealing with it. Every ordinary method of historical investigation proves inadequate to the complexity of the conditions. The standards of ordinary historical science are here inadequate, its methods not immediately applicable. The historical study of the life of Jesus has had to create its own methods for itself. In the constant succession of unsuccessful attempts, five or six problems have emerged side by side which together constitute the fundamental problem. There is, however, no direct method of solving the problem in its complexity; all that can be done is to experiment continuously, starting from definite assumptions; and in this experimentation the guiding principle must ultimately rest upon historical intuition.

    The cause of this lies in the nature of the sources of the life of Jesus, and in the character of our knowledge of the contemporary religious world of thought. It is not that the sources are in themselves bad. When we have once made up our minds that we have not the materials for a complete Life of Jesus, but only for a picture of His public ministry, it must be admitted that there are few characters of antiquity about whom we possess so much indubitably historical information, of whom we have so many authentic, discourses. The position is much more favourable, for instance, than in the case of Socrates; for he is pictured to us by literary men who exercised their creative ability upon the portrait. Jesus stands much more immediately before us, because He was depicted by simple Christians without literary gift.

    But at this point there arises a twofold difficulty. There is first the fact that what has just been said applies only to the first three Gospels, while the fourth, as regards its character, historical data, and discourse material, forms a world of its own. It is written from the Greek standpoint, while the first three are written from the Jewish. And even if one could get over this, and regard, as has often been done, the Synoptics and the Fourth Gospel as standing in something of the same relation to one another as Xenophon does to Plato as sources for the life of Socrates, yet the complete irreconcilability of the historical data would compel the critical investigator to decide from the first in favour of one source or the other. Once more it is found true that "No man can serve two masters." This stringent dilemma was not recognised from the beginning; its emergence is one of the results of the whole course of experiment.

    The second difficulty regarding the sources is the want of any thread of connexion in the material which they offer us. While the Synoptics are only collections of anecdotes (in the best, historical sense of the word), the Gospel of John — as stands on record in its closing words — only professes to give a selection of the events and discourses.

    From these materials we can only get a Life of Jesus with yawning gaps. How are these gaps to be filled? At the worst with phrases, at the best with historical imagination. There is really no other means of arriving at the order and inner connexion of the facts of the life of Jesus than the making and testing of hypotheses. If the tradition preserved by the Synoptists really includes all that happened during the time that Jesus was with his disciples, the attempt to discover the connexion must succeed sooner or later. It becomes more and more clear that this presupposition is indispensable to the investigation. If it is merely a fortuitous series of episodes that the Evangelists have handed down to us, we may give up the attempt to arrive at a critical reconstruction of the life of Jesus as hopeless.

    But it is not only the events which lack historical connexion, we are without any indication of a thread of connexion in the actions and discourses of Jesus, because the sources give no hint of the character of His self-consciousness. They confine themselves to outward facts. We only begin to understand these historically when we can mentally place them in an intelligible connexion and conceive them as the acts of a clearly defined personality. All that we know of the development of Jesus and of His Messianic self-consciousness has been arrived at by a series of working hypotheses. Our conclusions can only be considered valid so long as they are not found incompatible with the recorded facts as a whole.

    It may be maintained by the aid of arguments drawn from the sources that the self-consciousness of Jesus underwent a development during the course of His public ministry; it may, with equally good grounds, be denied. For in both cases the arguments are based upon little details in the narrative in regard to which we do not know whether they are purely accidental, or whether they belong to the essence of the facts. In each case, moreover, the experimental working out of the hypothesis leads to a conclusion which compels the rejection of some of the actual data of the sources. Each view equally involves a violent treatment of the text.

    Furthermore, the sources exhibit, each within itself, a striking contradiction. They assert that Jesus felt Himself to be the Messiah; and yet from their presentation of His life it does not appear that He ever publicly claimed to be so. They attribute to Him, that is, an attitude which has absolutely no connexion with the consciousness which they assume that He possessed. But once admit that the outward acts are not the natural expression of the self-consciousness and all exact historical knowledge is at an end; we have to do with an isolated fact which is not referable to any law.

    This being so, the only way of arriving at a conclusion of any value is to experiment, to test, by working them out, the two hypotheses — that Jesus felt Himself to be the Messiah, as the sources assert, or that He did not feel Himself to be so, as His conduct implies; or else to try to conjecture what kind of Messianic consciousness His must have been, if it left His conduct and His discourses unaffected. For one thing is certain; the whole account of the last days at Jerusalem would be unintelligible, if we had to suppose that the mass of the people had a shadow of a suspicion that Jesus held Himself to be the Messiah.

    Again, whereas in general a personality is to some extent defined by the world of thought which it shares with its contemporaries, in the case of Jesus this source of information is as unsatisfactory as the documents.

    What was the nature of the contemporary Jewish world of thought? To that question no clear answer can be given. We do not know whether the expectation of the Messiah was generally current or whether it was the faith of a mere sect. With the Mosaic religion as such it had nothing to do. There was no organic connexion between the religion of legal observance and the future hope. Further, if the eschatological hope was generally current, was it the prophetic or the apocalyptic form of that hope? We know the Messianic expectations of the prophets; we know the apocalyptic picture as drawn by Daniel, and, following him, by Enoch and the Psalms of Solomon before the coming of Jesus, and by the Apocalypses of Ezra and Baruch about the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. But we do not know which was the popular form; nor, supposing that both were combined into one picture, what this picture really looked like. We know only the form of eschatology which meets us in the Gospels and in the Pauline epistles; that is to say, the form which it took in the Christian community in consequence of the coming of Jesus. And to combine these three — the prophetic, the Late-Jewish apocalyptic, and the Christian — has not proved possible.

    Even supposing we could obtain more exact information regarding the popular Messianic expectations at the time of Jesus, we should still not know what form they assumed in the self-consciousness of One who knew Himself to be the Messiah but held that the time was not yet come for Him to reveal Himself as such. We only know their aspect from without, as a waiting for the Messiah and the Messianic Age; we have no clue to their aspect from within as factors in the Messianic self-consciousness. We possess no psychology of the Messiah. The Evangelists have nothing to tell us about it, because Jesus told them nothing about it; the
    sources for the contemporary spiritual life inform us only concerning the eschatological expectation. For the form of the Messianic self-consciousness of Jesus we have to fall back upon conjecture.

    Such is the character of the problem, and, as a consequence, historical experiment must here take the place of historical research. That being so, it is easy to understand that to take a survey of the study of the life of Jesus is to be confronted, at first sight, with a scene of the most boundless confusion. A series of experiments are repeated with constantly varying modifications suggested by the results furnished by the subsidiary sciences. Most of the writers, however, have no suspicion that they are merely repeating an experiment which has often been made before. Some of them discover this in the course of their work to their own great astonishment — it is so, for instance, with Wrede, who recognises that he is working out, though doubtless with a clearer consciousness of his aim, an idea of Bruno Bauer's.[1] If old Reimarus were to come back again, he might confidently give himself out to be the latest of the moderns, for his work rests upon a recognition of the exclusive importance of eschatology, such as only recurs again in Johannes Weiss.

    Progress, too, is curiously fitful, with long intervals of marking time between the advances. From Strauss down to the 'nineties there was no real progress, if one takes into consideration only the complete Lives of Jesus which appeared. But a number of separate problems took a more clearly defined form, so that in the end the general problem suddenly moved forward, as it seemed, with a jerk.

    There is really no common standard by which to judge the works with which we have to do. It is not the most orderly narratives, those which weave in conscientiously every detail of the text, which have advanced the study of the subject, but precisely the eccentric ones, those that take the greatest liberties with the text. It is not by the mass of facts that a writer sets down alongside of one another as possible — because he writes easily and there is no one there to contradict him, and because facts on paper do not come into collision so sharply as they do in reality — it is not in that way that he shows his power of reconstructing history, but by that which he recognises as impossible. The constructions of Reimarus and Bruno Bauer have no solidity; they are mere products of the imagination. But there is much more historical power in their clear grasp of a single definite problem, which has blinded them to all else, than there is in the circumstantial works of Beyschlag and Bernard Weiss.

    But once one has accustomed oneself to look for certain definite landmarks amid this apparent welter of contusion one begins at last to discover in vague outline the course followed, and the progress made, by the critical study of the life of Jesus.

    It falls, immediately, into two periods, that before Strauss and that after Strauss. The dominant interest in the first is the question of miracle. What terms are possible between a historical treatment and the acceptance of supernatural events? With the advent of Strauss this problem found a solution, viz., that these events have no rightful place in the history, but are simply mythical elements in the sources. The way was thus thrown open. Meanwhile, alongside of the problem of the supernatural, other problems had been dimly apprehended. Reimarus had drawn attention to the contemporary eschatological views; Hase, in his first Life of Jesus (1829), had sought to trace a development in the self-consciousness of Jesus.

    But on this point a clear view was impossible, because all the students of the subject were still basing their operations upon the harmony of the Synoptics and the Fourth Gospel; which means that they had not so far felt the need of a historically intelligible outline of the life of Jesus. Here, too, Strauss, was the lightbringer. But the transient illumination was destined to be obscured by the Marcan hypothesis,[1] which now came to the front. The necessity of choosing between John and the Synoptists was first fully established by the Tubingen school; and the right relation of this question to the Marcan hypothesis was subsequently shown by Holtzmann.

    While these discussions of the preliminary literary questions were in progress the main historical problem of the life of Jesus was slowly rising into view. The question began to be mooted: what was the significance of eschatology for the mind of Jesus? With this problem was associated, in virtue of an inner connexion which was not at first suspected, the problem of the self-consciousness of Jesus. At the beginning of the 'nineties it was generally felt that, in the solution given to this dual problem, and in some measure assured knowledge of the outward and inward course of the life of Jesus had been reached. At this point Johannes Weiss revived the comprehensive claim of Reimarus on behalf of eschatology; and scarcely had criticism adjusted its attitude to this question when Wrede renewed the attempt of Bauer and Volkmar to eliminate altogether the Messianic element from the life of Jesus.

    We are now once more in the midst of a period of great activity in the study of the subject. On the one side we are offered a historical solution, on the other a literary. The question at issue is: Is it possible to explain the contradiction between the Messianic consciousness of Jesus and His non-Messianic discourses and actions by means of a conception of His Messianic consciousness which will make it appear that He could not have acted otherwise than as the Evangelists describe; or must we endeavour to explain the contradiction by taking the non-Messianic discourses and actions as our fixed point, denying the reality of His Messianic self-consciousness and regarding it as a later interpolation of the beliefs of the Christian community into the life of Jesus? In the latter case the Evangelists are supposed to have attributed these Messianic claims to Jesus because the early Church held Him to be the Messiah, but to have contradicted themselves by describing His life as it actually was, viz., as the life of a prophet, not of one who held Himself to be the Messiah. To put it briefly: Does the difficulty of explaining the historical personality of Jesus lie in the history itself, or only in the way in which it is represented in the sources?

    This alternative will be discussed in all the critical studies of the next few years. Once clearly posed it compels a decision. But no one can really understand the problem who has not a clear notion of the way in which it has shaped itself in the course of the investigation; no one can justly criticise, or appraise the value of, new contributions to the study of this subject unless he knows in what forms they have been presented before.

    The history of the study of the life of Jesus has hitherto received surprisingly little attention. Hase, in his Life of Jesus of 1829, briefly records the previous attempts to deal with the subject. Friedrich von Ammon, himself one of the most distinguished students in this department, in his "Progress of Christianity," [l] gives some information regarding "the most notable biographies of Jesus of the last fifty years." In the year 1865 Uhlhorn treated together the Lives of Jesus of Renan, Schenkel, and Strauss; in 1876 Hase, in his "History of Jesus," gave the only complete literary history of the subject; [2] in 1892 Uhlhorn extended his former lecture to include the works of Keim, Deiff, Beyschlag, and Weiss; [3] in 1898 Frentzen described, in a short essay, the progress of the study since Strauss; [4] in 1899 and 1900 Baldensperger gave, in the Theologische Rundschau, a survey of the most recent publications; [5] Weinel's book, "Jesus in the Nineteenth Century," naturally only gives an analysis of a few classical works; Otto Schmiedel's lecture on the "Main Problems of the Critical Study of the Life of Jesus" (1902) merely sketches the history of the subject in broad outline.[1]

    Apart from scattered notices in histories of theology this is practically all the literature of the subject. There is room for an attempt to bring order into the chaos of the Lives of Jesus. Hase made ingenious comparisons between them, but he was unable to group them according to inner principles, or to judge them justly. Weiss is for him a feebler descendant of Strauss, Bruno Bauer is the victim of a fantastic imagination. It would indeed have been difficult for Hase to discover in the works of his time any principle of division. But now, when the literary and eschatological methods of solution have led to complementary results, when the post-Straussian period of investigation seems to have reached a provisional close, and the goal to which it has been tending has become clear, the time seems ripe for the attempt to trace genetically in the successive works the shaping of the problem as it now confronts us, and to give a systematic historical account of the critical study of the life of Jesus. Our endeavour will be to furnish a graphic description of all the attempts to deal with the subject; and not to dismiss them with stock phrases or traditional labels, but to show clearly what they really did to advance the formulation of the problem, whether their contemporaries recognised it or not. In accordance with this principle many famous Lives of Jesus which have prolonged an honoured existence through many successive editions, will make but a poor figure, while others, which have received scant notice, will appear great. Behind Success comes Truth, and her reward is with her.

    THE RESULTS: THOSE WHO ARE FOND OF TALKING ABOUT NEGATIVE THEOLOGY CAN FIND their account here. There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the Life of Jesus.

    The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give His work its final consecration, never had any existence. He is a figure designed by rationalism, endowed with life by liberalism, and clothed by modern theology in an historical garb.

    This image has not been destroyed from without, it has fallen to pieces, cleft and disintegrated by the concrete historical problems which came to the surface one after another, and in spite of all the artifice, art, artificiality, and violence which was applied to them, refused to be planed down to fit the design on which the Jesus of the theology of the last hundred and thirty years had been constructed, and were no sooner covered over than they appeared again in a new form. The thoroughgoing sceptical and the thoroughgoing eschatological school have only completed the work of destruction by linking the problems into a system and so making an end of the Divide et impera of modern theology, which undertook to solve each of them separately, that is, in a less difficult form. Henceforth it is no longer permissible to take one problem out of the series and dispose of it by itself, since the weight of the whole hangs upon each.

    Whatever the ultimate solution may be, the historical Jesus of whom the criticism of the future, taking as its starting-point the problems which have been recognised and admitted, will draw the portrait, can never render modern theology the services which it claimed from its own half-historical, half-modern, Jesus. He will be a Jesus, who was Messiah, and lived as such, either on the ground of a literary fiction of the earliest Evangelist, or on the ground of a purely eschatological Messianic conception.

    In either case, He will not be a Jesus Christ to whom the religion of the present can ascribe, according to its long-cherished custom, its own thoughts and ideas, as it did with the Jesus of its own making. Nor will He be a figure which can be made by a popular historical treatment so sympathetic and universally intelligible to the multitude. The historical Jesus will be to our time a stranger and an enigma.

    The study of the Life of Jesus has had a curious history. It set out in quest of the historical Jesus, believing that when it had found Him it could bring Him straight into our time as a Teacher and Saviour. It loosed the bands by which He had been riveted for centuries to the stony rocks of ecclesiastical doctrine, and rejoiced to see life and movement coming into the figure once more, and the historical Jesus advancing, as it seemed, to meet it. But He does not stay; He passes by our time and returns to His own. What surprised and dismayed the theology of the last forty years was that, despite all forced and arbitrary interpretations, it could not keep Him in our time, but had to let Him go. He returned to His own time, not owing to the application of any historical ingenuity, but by the same inevitable necessity by which the liberated pendulum returns to its original position.

    The historical foundation of Christianity as built up by rationalistic, by liberal, and by modern theology no longer exists; but that does not mean that Christianity has lost its historical foundation. The work which historical theology thought itself bound to carry out, and which fell to pieces just as it was nearing completion, was only the brick facing of the real immovable historical foundation which is independent of any historical comfirmation or justification.

    Jesus means something to our world because a mighty spiritual force streams forth from Him and flows through our time also. This fact can neither be shaken nor confirmed by any historical discovery. It is the solid foundation of Christianity.

    The mistake was to suppose that Jesus could come to mean more to our time by entering into it as a man like ourselves. That is not possible. First because such a Jesus never existed. Secondly because, although historical knowledge can no doubt introduce greater clearness into an existing spiritual life, it cannot call spiritual life into existence. History can destroy the present; it can reconcile the present with the past; can even to a certain extent transport the present into the past; but to contribute to the making of the present is not given unto it.

    But it is impossible to over-estimate the value of what German research upon the Life of Jesus has accomplished. It is a uniquely great expression of sincerity, one of the most significant events in the whole mental and spiritual life of humanity. What has been done for the religious life of the present and the immediate future by scholars such as P. W. Schmidt, Bousset, Jiilicher, Weinel, Wernle—and their pupil Frenssen—and the others who have been called to the task of bringing to the knowledge of wider circles, in a form which is popular without being superficial, the results of religious-historical study, only becomes evident when one examines the literature and social culture of the Latin nations, who have been scarcely if at all touched by the influence of these thinkers.

    And yet the time of doubt was bound to come. We modern theologians are too proud of our historical method, too proud of our historical Jesus, too confident in our belief in the spiritual gains which our historical theology can bring to the world. The thought that we could build up by the increase of historical knowledge a new and vigorous Christianity and set free new spiritual forces, rules us like a fixed idea, and prevents us from seeing that the task which we have grappled with and in some measure discharged is only one of the intellectual preliminaries of the great religious task. We thought that it was for us to lead our time by a roundabout way through the historical Jesus, as we understood Him, in order to bring it to the Jesus who is a spiritual power in the present. This roundabout way has now been closed by genuine history.

    There was a danger of our thrusting ourselves between men and the Gospels, and refusing to leave the individual man alone with the sayings of Jesus.

    There was a danger that we should offer them a Jesus who was too small, because we had forced Him into conformity with our human standards and human psychology. To see that, one need only read the Lives of Jesus written since the 'sixties, and notice what they have made of the great imperious sayings of the Lord, how they have weakened down His imperative world-contemning demands upon individuals, that He might not come into conflict with our ethical ideals, and might tune His denial of the world to our acceptance of it. Many of the greatest sayings are found lying in a corner like explosive shells from which the charges have been removed. No small portion of elemental religious power needed to be drawn off from His sayings to prevent them from conflicting with our system of religious world-acceptance. We have made Jesus hold another language with our time from that which He really held.

    In the process we ourselves have been enfeebled, and have robbed our own thoughts of their vigour in order to project them back into history and make them speak to us out of the past. It is nothing less than a misfortune for modern theology that it mixes history with everything and ends by being proud of the skill with which it finds its own thoughts— even to its beggarly pseudo-metaphysic with which it has banished genuine speculative metaphysic from the sphere of religion—in Jesus, and represents Him as expressing them. It had almost deserved the reproach: "he who putteth his hand to the plough, and looketh back, is not fit for the Kingdom of God."

    It was no small matter, therefore, that in the course of the critical study of the Life of Jesus, after a resistance lasting for two generations, during which first one expedient was tried and then another, theology was forced by genuine history to begin to doubt the artificial history with which it had thought to give new life to our Christianity, and to yield to the facts, which, as Wrede strikingly said, are sometimes the most radical critics of all. History will force it to find a way to transcend history, and to fight for the lordship and rule of Jesus over this world with weapons tempered in a different forge.

    We are experiencing what Paul experienced. In the very moment when we were coming nearer to the historical Jesus than men had ever come before, and were already stretching out our hands to draw Him into our own time, we have been obliged to give up the attempt and acknowledge our failure in that paradoxical saying: "If we have known Christ after the flesh yet henceforth know we Him no more." And further we must be prepared to find that the historical knowledge of the personality and life of Jesus will not be a help, but perhaps even an offence to religion.

    But the truth is, it is not Jesus as historically known, but Jesus as spiritually arisen within men, who is significant for our time and can help it. Not the historical Jesus, but the spirit which goes forth from Him and in the spirits of men strives for new influence and rule, is that which overcomes the world.

    It is not given to history to disengage that which is abiding and eternal in the being of Jesus from the historical forms in which it worked itself out, and to introduce it into our world as a living influence. It has toiled in vain at this undertaking. As a water-plant is beautiful so long as it is growing in the water, but once torn from its roots, withers and becomes unrecognisable, so it is with the historical Jesus when He is wrenched loose from the soil of eschatology, and the attempt is made to conceive Him "historically" as a Being not subject to temporal conditions. The abiding and eternal in Jesus is absolutely independent of historical knowledge and can only be understood by contact with His spirit which is still at work in the world. In proportion as we have the Spirit of Jesus we have the true knowledge of Jesus.

    Jesus as a concrete historical personality remains a stranger to our time, but His spirit, which lies hidden in His words, is known in simplicity, and its influence is direct. Every saying contains in its own way the whole Jesus. The very strangeness and unconditionedness in which He stands before us makes it easier for individuals to find their own personal standpoint in regard to Him.

    Men feared that to admit the claims of eschatology would abolish the significance of His words for our time; and hence there was a feverish eagerness to discover in them any elements that might be considered not eschatologically conditioned. When any sayings were found of which the wording did not absolutely imply an eschatological connexion there was a great jubilation—these at least had been saved uninjured from the coming debacle.

    But in reality that which is eternal in the words of Jesus is due to the very fact that they are based on an eschatological worldview, and contain the expression of a mind for which the contemporary world with its historical and social circumstances no longer had any existence. They are appropriate, therefore, to any world, for in every world they raise the man who dares to meet their challenge, and does not turn and twist them into meaninglessness, above his world and his time, making him inwardly free, so that he is fitted to be, in his own world and in his own time, a simple channel of the power of Jesus.

    Modern Lives of Jesus are too general in their scope. They aim at influencing, by giving a complete impression of the life of Jesus, a whole community. But the historical Jesus, as He is depicted in the Gospels, influenced individuals by the individual word. They understood Him so far as it was necessary for them to understand, without forming any conception of His life as a whole, since this in its ultimate aims remained a mystery even for the disciples.

    Because it is thus preoccupied with the general, the universal, modern theology is determined to find its world-accepting ethic in the teaching of Jesus. Therein lies its weakness. The world affirms itself automatically; the modern spirit cannot but affirm it. But why on that account abolish the conflict between modern life, with the world-affirming spirit which inspires it as a whole, and the world-negating spirit of Jesus? Why spare the spirit of the individual man its appointed task of fighting its way through the world-negation of Jesus, of contending with Him at every step over the value of material and intellectual goods—a conflict in which it may never rest? For the general, for the institutions of society, the rule is: affirmation of the world, in conscious opposition to the view of Jesus, on the ground that the world has affirmed itself! This general affirmation of the world, however, if it is to be Christian, must in the individual spirit be Christianised and transfigured by the personal rejection of the world which is preached in the sayings of Jesus. It is only by means of the tension thus set up that religious energy can be communicated to our time. There was a danger that modern theology, for the sake of peace, would deny the world-negation in the sayings of Jesus, with which Protestantism was out of sympathy, and thus unstring the bow and make Protestantism a mere sociological instead of a religious force. There was perhaps also a danger of inward insincerity in the fact that it refused to admit to itself and others that it maintained its affirmation of the world in opposition to the sayings of Jesus, simply because it could not do otherwise.

    For that reason it is a good thing that the true historical Jesus should overthrow the modern Jesus, should rise up against the modern spirit and send upon earth, not peace, but a sword. He was not teacher, not a casuist; He was an imperious ruler. It was because He was so in His inmost being that He could think of Himself as the Son of Man. That was only the temporally conditioned expression of the fact that He was an authoritative ruler. The names in which men expressed their recognition of Him as such, Messiah, Son of Man, Son of God, have become for us historical parables. We can find no designation which expresses what He is for us.

    He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lake-side, He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same word: "Follow thou me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfil for our time. He commands. And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.

    Perhaps there is an original Micael/Horus/Mithras/Jesus story - which was a mixture of reality and fantasy - which then was repeated and embellished. Perhaps someone should write 'The Quest for the Historical Horus' as a companion to 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus'. What would Albert Schweitzer say? BTW - Dr. Schweitzer doubted the Historical Jesus, but highly valued the Teachings of Jesus. My present view is that the Four Gospels should be studied as a mental and spiritual exercise, and that people should then think and do whatever makes sense - under the influence of the words attributed to Jesus Christ. I struggle with probably 5% of the Red-Letters, and I sometimes ask 'Jesus! What were you thinking?' Perhaps someday, someone will write 'The Quest of the Historical Orthodoxymoron', 'The Demythologized Orthodoxymoron', 'The Moron Who Never Was', 'More On Orthodoxymoron', or 'Orthodoxymoron Never Existed'. I should stop.

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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:25 pm

    Consider these Ralph Ellis interviews (which actually have more to do with the Old Testament, than with Jesus and the New Testament). 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=3ris3YCcmYk 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50BZMNhe0j4&feature=related Please keep thinking about Christocentric Egyptology and Reincarnating Archangels. What if Jesus turns out to be like this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctzcqPO9Zd4&feature=related What if Jesus shows-up, and pisses everyone off? What if NOBODY wants to have anything to do with him? Are the world political and religious leaders busy scratching their behinds, trying to figure-out what to do with Michael / Horus / Jesus right now? What if everyone gets left to their own devices? I'm really going silent now. I've had quite enough. I intend to do sci-fi writing, music writing, cleaning house -- and a lot of research based mostly on the Original Avalon and The Mists of Avalon web sites. I also have a stack of books to read, and videos to watch. Hobbies can be a sort of religion. Gardening can be a sort of religion. Sports can be a sort of religion. Politics can be a sort of religion. I don't care. As long as people are responsible, and don't hurt or kill each other, I couldn't care less what they do. Even the statements of Jesus have to be viewed regarding who he was fighting, rather than necessarily being statements of exactly how we should live today -- although we still seem to be fighting the same bastards Jesus was fighting. I love all of you. Namaste and Godspeed.

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:43 pm

    I thought I was a fast-talker until I heard this guy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQvJWbu92lw You don't hear this sort of thing in white churches, now do you?? orthodoxymoron?? Pretty fly for a white guy!! Here's an interesting video about reptilians, uncloaking, and the 'veil being lifted'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgy8Q5jRxDA&feature=related Again, I like to just sample various points of view. This makes it difficult to be dogmatic, and it's probably not a proper way to run an organization. People tend to gravitate toward 'Strong Leadership'. I sometimes imagine myself as being a token Fidora, Birkenstock, and Blue-Jeans, Palmer Joss Type, United States of the Solar System Ambassador to the Vatican -- if you know what I mean. I am definite about a Responsibility-Based United States of the Solar System, but I am not definite regarding the particulars. I am not a 'my way, or the highway' kind of guy. Not in this incarnation anyway. I especially like watching obscure videos, made by those nobody knows. They are often quite profound. I even listen to my co-workers and people on the street with great interest, because their words often contain a helluva lot of wisdom. Even completely ignorant fools can say the most amazing and helpful things. I think I might be an example of this sort of thing. One must listen to everyone, with an open yet discerning mind...
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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:57 pm

    Consider studying Genesis, Exodus, Psalms, Proverbs, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, and the Book of Enoch. Do you know why I selected these books? Consider reading them in the King James Version of the Holy Bible. Do you know why I selected the KJV? A pheonomenon is one thing, and the interpretation is quite another. I will continue to toy with the idea that mammalian humanoids and reptilian humanoids have the same type of soul, and that the various physical forms (including human, reptilian, grey, and drac) are the result of genetics experiments, possibly conducted thousands or millions of years ago. I will also continue to think of the various humanoid lifeforms in this solar system as being 'The Orion Group'. I might be completely wrong, but I will continue to experiment with this hypothesis. I just watched a video, where the speaker endorsed the factual information of Zechariah Sitchin, but did not endorse some of his interpretations of this factual information. He said that Sitchin twisted the data to conform to his religious association and convictions, rather than just letting the information speak for itself. What if some of the different ET's are just reptilians of various ages? We've probably already posted this video, but I'm looking at it today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB28xXEdBGg&feature=related What if someone genetically combined humans with the best and brightest dinosaurs, and then kept refining the new beast until they ended up with Various Reptilians, Greys and Dracs? Or what if someone did what I just said in reverse? What if the Dinosaurs were purposely exterminated by these same genetic engineers? Then, what if the Mammalian Humanoids and Reptilian Humanoids got into a really destructive power struggle? What if the Mammalian Humanoids exterminated the Dinosaurs? What if we are rapidly approaching some sort of a 'Pay-Back Time'? Who have the archangels been -- reincarnationally? Was Michael really a Reptilian-Queen, the Chief Musician in Heaven, Adam, Dumuzi, Aha, King David, Ptolemy XV Cesarion, Jesus Christ, Michaelangelo, et al? I mostly just pulled these names out of a hat -- so don't take what I said too seriously. Did Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer rebel against God the Father? Notice that it's IHS (Isis, Horus, and Set) rather than OIHS (Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Set). I think I know a lot more about Horus and Set, than I do about Osiris and Isis. I think we might be in the middle of a Galactic Family Feud, which we might call 'East of Giza'. And you thought you had a nasty divorce?! If I ever meet with Jesuit, Nazi, Grey, and Draconian Egyptologists at 'Ork and Mork's Grey Bar' on the Dark Side of the Moon - one of my first questions would be "What is the complete reincarnational history of Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Ra -- going back millions of years -- and right up to the present moment?" I think they know. I really do.
    IHS = ISIS, HORUS, SET = GABRIEL, MICHAEL, LUCIFER = QUEEN OF HEAVEN, JESUS CHRIST, GOD OF THIS WORLD = THREE ARCHANGELS = TRINITY GODDESSES = THREE REPTILIAN QUEENS = WE THREE QUEENS OF ORION??? William Schnoebelen, in his book, Masonry Beyond The Light, states: " Set (Lucifer) is the acknowledged god of Masonry."
    OMG!! IT'S BEELZEBUB!!THERE'S ALWAYS A FLY IN THE OINTMENT! WHERE'S CORRADO BALDUCCI WHEN YOU NEED HIM??! OH, I FORGOT -- HE'S DEAD...
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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:02 pm

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:19 am

    I've touched upon this many times before, but I am really undecided about all of this. Consider the following as an exercise:

    1. The Traditional Latin Mass (1962 Missal). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE
    2. The 'Desire of Ages' by Ellen White (For a profound Christocentric Whole Bible Approach, which is actually quite ecumenical, believe it or not).
    3. Sacred Classical Music (Including Gregorian Chant and Organ-Improvisation).
    4. The 'Federalist Papers' (Including the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights).

    I continue to desire historical continuity, while avoiding the historical absurdities and atrocities which are painfully obvious when one looks closely at church history. Once again, I'm suggesting devotional exposure to this short list as a mental and spiritual exercise, rather than being a bold or arrogant statement regarding how I think things should be. I continue to think that a proper refining and reforming of the City States is essential in order for the human race to survive and thrive. I'm also interested in the hypothetical Osiris-Isis-Horus-Set and a Sirian-Egyptian-Roman Empire, with the City States being the backbone of this phenomenon in this solar system. I'm interested in a Minimalist-Traditionalist Approach and Massive Doses of Positive Reinforcement. Unfortunately, my internet posting has probably been more critical and irreverent than necessary, and I apologize if I have hurt feelings. I sometimes think I am more Catholic than the Catholics and more Protestant than the Protestants. I'm all over the charts, and I don't fit neatly into any categories. I hear dissatisfaction with the 'Novus Ordo' and with the 'Book of Divine Worship', and it sounds as though these were strained attempts at modernization, rather than being products of natural liturgical evolutionary processes, which might occur over several decades. Latin use in modernity is not intended to keep people from reading the Bible. Translations are readily available. I simply like listening to Latin Masses while I read or study. I can't do this while listening to a religious service in English. The Latin creates a sense of mystery which allows the participant to formulate their own thoughts, rather than being spoon-fed by the priest or pastor. I would think this would be a plus in our highly diverse and pluralistic society. Even an atheist could be inspired to be a better person in such a setting. Just a thought. I continue to have huge problems with the perpetual unbloody human sacrifice aspects of the Mass, but on the other hand, the highest ground is at the foot of the cross. There is something to be said for the solemnity of the Mass. I'm searching for a liturgical solution, but so far I haven't found one. Tradition v Chaos? Have you watched TBN lately? What a zoo!

    I wonder as I wander, and I ponder as I blunder. I'm very apprehensive regarding 'enlightenment' and 'ascension' when we don't seem to be interested in or able to discuss all of the above in a reasonable and rational manner. I get a sinking feeling that the next few years are going to be extremely difficult for humanity, in so many ways. We often seem like lambs to the slaughter. I know I've been getting my butt kicked from one end of the solar system to the other -- physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I keep hoping that things will improve -- but they never do. Hope springs eternal. I'd really like to properly discuss politics and religion, but it doesn't seem as if that's going to happen. Not here anyway. And really, in settings where these topics would generate some discussion, the participants usually have their minds made up, and don't really want to engage in truly creative thinking. Or, it becomes obvious that people are going to get badly hurt if things get too controversial. I think I need to start thinking about things which will help me pay my bills. Perhaps I can sing a song or throw a ball, instead of delusionally trying to save the world, the solar system, and the human race. I can almost hear the laughter as I struggle with subjects which seem to be filled with lies, confusion, and no satisfying answers. Perhaps the sheep should just keep sleeping. Why wake-up and face endless frustration? I just hope that some agents, theologians, et al have been able to gain some insights from my ramblings. I might stumble upon something of value from time to time. Namaste.
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    burgundia

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  burgundia on Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:04 am

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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:14 pm

    Thank-you Burgundia. Jesus-Studies are multifaceted. I think Jesus existed. I don't think Jesus existed. I think "Jesus" should be studied extensively -- but I don't really know where the truth-ends and the bullshit-begins. I've recently read a very-nasty book by Roman Piso. I don't recommend it. Abelard Reuchlin, Robert Eisenman, and John Dominic Crossan seem to be more balanced and approachable. Roman Piso might be right -- but I think there might be a context and background which he is missing or purposely avoiding. The concept of a Model God-Human is a legitimate Christ-Consciousness -- Real and/or Imaginary. I'll continue to support and attack basic Christian-Presuppositions. I continue to think that the Info-War will badly-wound almost everyone (including me). I've already been shot-up pretty-badly -- and I don't think the Real-War has even started. I don't think we've seen anything yet. Do NOT Throw Out the Baby with the Bullshit. The Info-War Will Ultimately Leave All of Us Disoriented and Disillusioned. The World is Getting Smaller and Faster. Secrets Are Harder to Keep. This Solar System Might Be a Bucking-Bronco Which No One Can Ride. I'm Frankly Prepared to Start-Over Each and Every Day. Consider studying the following three KJV Lists side by side (straight-through -- over and over):

    1. Job through Song of Songs.
    2. Isaiah through Daniel.
    3. Hosea through Malachi.

    Consider comparing and contrasting yet another three KJV Lists:

    1. Genesis.
    2. Exodus.
    3. Leviticus.
    4. Numbers.
    5. Deuteronomy.
    6. Joshua.

    1. Job.
    2. Psalms.
    3. Proverbs.
    4. Ecclesiastes.
    5. Song of Songs.
    6. Isaiah.

    1. Matthew.
    2. Mark.
    3. Luke.
    4. John.
    5. Acts.
    6. Romans.

    Door Number One? -- Door Number Two? -- or Door Number Three?? Do You Feel Lucky?? The first group of six doesn't seem very "Christ-Like" but I don't think we know the real circumstances associated with these six books. The second and third groups are very "Christ-Like" but in very different ways. Is one "Christ" and the other "In Place of Christ"?? Again -- I don't think we know the real circumstances associated with these two-groups of six-books. Then -- when "Jesus" gets marketed like "Soap" -- things sort of get out of control. I think the PTB have a Dragon by the Tail -- and are afraid to let go. "Just let it go..." Just kidding -- or am  I?? BTW -- I'd still like to know if "Q" consists of 37 books??!!



    Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  4 Blessed are they that mourn : for they shall be comforted .  5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.  6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled .  7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy .  8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.  9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.  10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  11 Blessed are ye , when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil  against you falsely , for my sake .  12 Rejoice , and be exceeding glad : for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.  13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour , wherewith shall it be salted ? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.  14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot  be hid .  15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.  16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.  17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil .  18 For verily I say unto you, Till  heaven and earth pass , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till  all be fulfilled .  19 Whosoever  therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed  the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.  21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill ; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:  22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say , Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.  23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;  24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way ; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.  25 Agree  with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.  26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.  27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery :  28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out , and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish , and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.  30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off , and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish , and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.  31 It hath been said  , Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:  32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery : and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery .  33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself , but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:  34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:  35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool  : neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.  36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.  37 But let your communication be , Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.  38 Ye have heard that it hath been said , An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:  39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.  40 And if any man will sue thee at the law , and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.  41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.  42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away .  43 Ye have heard that it hath been said , Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.  44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;  45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.  46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye ? do not even the publicans the same?  47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?  48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen  of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.  2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.  3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth :  4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly .  5 And when thou prayest , thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you , They have their reward.  6 But thou, when thou prayest , enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly .  7 But when ye pray , use not vain repetitions , as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.  8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.  9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.  10 Thy kingdom come . Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.  11 Give us this day our daily bread.  12 And forgive us our debts, as  we forgive our debtors.  13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.  14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:  15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.  16 Moreover when ye fast , be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast . Verily I say unto you , They have their reward.  17 But thou, when thou fastest , anoint thine head, and wash thy face;  18 That thou appear not unto men to fast , but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly .  19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt , and where thieves break through and steal :  20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt , and where thieves do not break through nor steal :  21 For where your treasure is , there will your heart be also.  22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.  23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!  24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot  serve God and mammon.  25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat , or what ye shall drink ; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on . Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?  26 Behold  the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap , nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?  27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?  28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow ; they toil not, neither do they spin :  29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.  30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is , and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?  31 Therefore take no thought , saying , What shall we eat ? or, What shall we drink ? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed ?  32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek :) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.  33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.  34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

    Judge not, that ye be not judged .  2 For with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete , it shall be measured to you again .  3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye?  5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.  6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.  7 Ask , and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find ; knock , and it shall be opened unto you:  8 For every one that asketh receiveth ; and he that seeketh findeth ; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened .  9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give  him a stone?  10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give  him a serpent?  11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?  12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.  13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat  :  14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.  15 Beware  of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  18 A good tree cannot  bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.  19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire.  20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.  21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  24 Therefore whosoever  heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:  25 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.  26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:  27 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell : and great was the fall of it

    The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:  3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and do ; but do not ye after their works: for they say , and do not.  4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.  5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men  : they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,  6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,  7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.  8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.  9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.  10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.  11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.  12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased ; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted .  13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in .  14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer : therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.  15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made , ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.  16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say , Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor !  17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?  18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever  sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty .  19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?  20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon .  21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.  22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon .  23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment , mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone .  24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.  25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.  26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.  27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.  28 Even so ye also  outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.  29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,  30 And say , If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.  31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.  32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  34 Wherefore , behold , I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify ; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:  35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy  children together , even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!  38 Behold , your house is left unto you desolate.  39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth , till ye shall say , Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    See ye the temple? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Take heed that no man deceive you.  5 For many shall come in my name, saying , I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled : for all these things must come to pass , but the end is not yet.  7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  8 All  these are the beginning of sorrows.  9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.  10 And then shall many be offended , and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  11 And many false prophets shall rise , and shall deceive many.  12 And because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall wax cold .  13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .  14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come .  15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand :)  16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be .  22 And except those days should be shortened , there should no flesh be saved : but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened .  23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo , here is Christ, or there; believe it not.  24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  25 Behold , I have told you before .  26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold , he is in the desert; go not forth : behold , he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.  27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .  28 For wheresoever the carcase is , there will the eagles be gathered together .  29 Immediately  after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :  30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .  32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:  33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.  34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass , till  all these things be fulfilled .  35 Heaven and earth shall pass away , but my words shall not pass away .  36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .  38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .  40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left .  41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left .  42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come .  43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come , he would have watched , and would not have suffered his house to be broken up .  44 Therefore  be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh .  45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?  46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing .  47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods .  48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming ;  49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken ;  50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of ,  51 And shall cut him asunder , and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.  2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.  3 They that were foolish took their  lamps, and took no oil with them:  4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.  5 While the bridegroom tarried , they all slumbered and slept .  6 And at midnight there was a cry made , Behold , the bridegroom cometh ; go ye out to meet him.  7 Then all those virgins arose , and trimmed their lamps.  8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out .  9 But the wise answered , saying , Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell , and buy for yourselves.  10 And while they went to buy , the bridegroom came ; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut .  11 Afterward  came also the other virgins, saying , Lord, Lord, open to us.  12 But he answered and said , Verily I say unto you, I know you not.  13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh .  14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country , who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods .  15 And unto one he gave five talents , to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey .  16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.  17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.  18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.  19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh , and reckoneth  with them.  20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying , Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.  21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.  22 He also that had received two talents came and said , Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.  23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.  24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said , Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown , and gathering where thou hast not strawed :  25 And I was afraid , and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.  26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed :  27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.  28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.  29 For unto every one that hath shall be given , and he shall have abundance : but from him that hath not shall be taken away  even that which he hath .  30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  33 And he shall set  the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come , ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  35 For I was an hungred , and ye gave me meat : I was thirsty , and ye gave me drink : I was a stranger, and ye took me in :  36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick , and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying , Lord, when saw we thee an hungred , and fed thee? or thirsty , and gave thee drink ?  38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in ? or naked, and clothed thee?  39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed , into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  42 For I was an hungred , and ye gave me no meat : I was thirsty , and ye gave me no drink :  43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in : naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  44 Then shall they also answer him, saying , Lord, when saw we thee an hungred , or athirst , or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  45 Then shall he answer them, saying , Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.  



    "You Can't Outrun or Outgun God!!"

    Beware of Nuns with Guns!! BTW -- has anyone seen Late Nite Catechism?? I saw it in Seattle!! It was frighteningly-funny!! How much crime might there be if Nuns Ran the Prisons??!! It might be the End of Crime As We Know It!! Here is a rather sad and disillusioning link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events I'm finding the book The End of the World, A.D. 2133. (Silvestre) to be MOST Interesting!! You might need to go to the Library of Congress to read a copy. I have a duplicate-copy from the Library of Congress. Please consider a strict grammatical-historical interpretation of Job through Daniel. Then -- give the results of this study a science-fictional context. You might wish to re-watch the Babylon 5 movies and series to get started with this ambitious project. Consider Kitesh relative to Vala Mal Doran in Stargate SG-1. Consider the Pre-Human Delenn relative to the Human Delenn in Babylon 5. Imagine Delenn and Vala running the Vatican!! Consider the concept of Reincarnating Gods and Goddesses -- complete with a Name Shell-Game. Some of you REALLY need to get Sirius about researching the areas I've touched upon within this thread. I have the questions. You need to find the answers. This project might be tougher and nastier than you can possibly imagine. I'm trying to take a break from posting -- but I plan to study eschatology in the context of science-fiction -- and I might keep most of the results of this study to myself. This stuff is mostly too painful and disillusioning for me to talk about. I've hinted-at a lot of things -- but I haven't spelled-out the details. This sort of thing isn't for everyone -- to say the least. So many people have gone through hell thinking about the End of the World -- for hundreds and thousands of years. Many people have experienced a "Time of Trouble" before the "Time of Trouble". Eschatology is NOT a particularly pastoral subject -- and I think it has screwed-up millions (and even billions) of people -- perhaps by design. Here is an interesting video. I've heard other versions of this sort of thing. I stopped attending the SDA church -- in part because I smelled a rat (or was it a dead church-mouse?)! I think EVERYTHING (of any significance) is infiltrated and subverted -- and that most EVERYONE (of any prominence) is controlled and scripted. Perhaps it has to be this way. Damned if I know. I simply know that I am EXTREMELY disillusioned and despondent.


    This is the sort of post which makes my stomach churn. I could've just made a nice post with the Nun-Pictures -- but no -- I had to post some really divisive and inflammatory material. Why?? Because this is a Moot Spiritual War which is intended to deal with the most controversial material in a somewhat constructive manner. My posts tend to make everyone angry -- rather than just one side, or the other. Please remember that this thread is only the beginning. I wish to state (one more time) that I am everyone's friend -- and no one's friend. I have spoken of listening (in person) to a Black Jesuit from San Francisco giving a presentation to the Association of Adventist Forums at Pacific Union College -- and enjoying that presentation. I have spoken of wishing to spend some quality time with the Jesuits on Mt. Graham -- with their big binocular-telescope. I have spoken of attending literally dozens of Masses (including a Latin Mass) in various Catholic churches and cathedrals -- and enjoying them. But the Ancient Egyptian Deity told me that the Jesuits didn't like me -- and that "they" liked me on Phobos!! Honest!! I have posted materials within this thread which could be construed as being critical of Catholicism (in general) and the Jesuits (in particular). I have somewhat jokingly spoken of imagining myself as being a Renegade French Jesuit Organist!! I do NOT hate Catholics!! I simply think that this world is run in a harsh and sinister manner -- and that Roman Catholicism is at the center of a very-real War in Heaven and Earth. I have even grouped the Nazis, Masons, and Jesuits into basically one-group working for the same boss (but I have no idea if this is really the way things work). I am honestly mostly neutral in all of this -- and I simply wish to understand -- and positively-reinforce that which presently exists. Unfortunately, this seems to make me everyone's-enemy -- but I frankly don't give a damn. Once again -- I am on everyone's side -- and on no one's side. I mostly wish to just quietly research and reflect -- without making a great-big deal about anything. I've done a lot of modeling -- some of it borderline-blasphemous -- but I simply desire understanding and illumination. I am NOT seeking to win some sort of a superficial popularity contest -- or any contest, for that matter. I desire the truth -- and I wish to benefit all-concerned -- regardless of whether anyone likes it, or not.




    The Ruler of This World Will Get You In The End...
    orthodoxymoron wrote:The Old-Testament ends around 400 BC -- with approximately 400 years of Biblical-Silence. I've been wondering if the New-Testament is somehow a corrupted version of Suppressed Intertestamental Messianic Writings (which might resemble the writings found in Job through Daniel -- or at least commentaries and applications of those books)?! I realize this is heresy -- and I have little evidence to back-up this radical idea. I have suggested a very careful study of Job through Daniel -- prior to studying other parts of the Bible -- using these ten-books as an interpretive-key. What if the time extending from Alexander the Great (356-323 BC) -- right up to the present -- should be viewed with extreme-suspicion -- especially regarding how this world has been run?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great What if all the religions which came into existence during this time-period were invented and promoted by the Same Hidden PTB?! This might hypothetically include Christianity (as we know it) -- Catholicism -- Islam -- Protestantism (in all of its forms) -- and virtually every religion and sect -- as franchises of One Big Business!! If true -- this would be upsetting and revolting to everyone -- wouldn't it?! Try reading Luke and James -- straight-through -- over and over -- comparing this study with the rest of the New-Testament. Then compare that same study with Job through Daniel. As I previously noted -- only Acts -- James -- and 3 John -- do NOT end with "Amen." Was someone trying to tell us something?? Further -- consider that Luke-Acts is really one book by the same author. Likewise -- one might consider First, Second, and Third John as being one book by the same author. If there is any validity to what I just said -- what would a study of the following books yield??

    1. Job.
    2. Psalms.
    3. Proverbs.
    4. Ecclesiastes.
    5. Song of Songs.
    6. Isaiah.
    7. Jeremiah.
    8. Lamentations.
    9. Ezekiel.
    10. Daniel.
    11. Luke.
    12. Acts.
    13. James.
    14. 1 John.
    15. 2 John.
    16. 3 John.

    Are these books consistent with the rest of the Bible?? If one studied these 16 books -- what doctrinal-framework might emerge?? Should a doctrinal-framework even be constructed?? Should these books simply be read (straight-through -- over and over)?? I am Not a Bible-Scholar. Not even close. I simply wonder as I wander. Once again -- I simply wish to research and reflect -- without getting angry and disruptive. I think we're in the process of finding-out some extremely upsetting and potentially-disruptive information. Being triumphalist in any of this would be a grave-error. Some say that the Catholic Church and the Pope are the Root of All Evil -- but I am suggesting the possibility of another layer of power, which even Rome is subservient to!! Groot is the Root of All Evil. Or perhaps the Mandrake is the Root of All Evil. What REALLY scares me is the possibility that the historical-madness and often ruthless and corrupt governance -- might've somehow been necessary and/or unavoidable (as insane as that sounds)!! Perhaps it has been somehow necessary for the Bad-Guys to run Earth, Inc. for thousands of years -- as revolting as that sounds!! Please consider ALL Possibilities before throwing stones!! Whenever I speculate about Solar System Governance -- I feel dirty and sick!! Perhaps there is No Good Way to Run a Solar System!! This thing might be tougher and nastier than we can possibly imagine!! Once again -- I have no idea what's true or false. I just take everything in -- and quietly move-on. What if one formulated a Mental and Spiritual Conceptualization of the Messiah based upon the following??

    1. Job through Daniel (KJV).
    2. The Bach B-Minor Mass.

    This wouldn't be Judaism or Christianity -- would it?? What would it be?? Just know that during my break I will be spending a lot of quality time with those two sources -- but, once again, this is simply an area of study, rather than being a line in the sand. What if Job through Daniel were given a completely universal-interpretation -- rather than being biased toward Judaism (ancient or modern)? What if the Bach B-Minor Mass were given a completely universal-interpretation -- rather than being biased toward Christianity or Catholicism?? Would these two sources make an effective Ecumenical Book of Common Prayer?? I often have NO Idea what people want and need. But whatever it is -- it probably has to be THEIR Idea!! Everyone seems to wish to rule (whether they admit it, or not). Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if the world were ruled by Jerusalem -- with absolute-obedience expected from everyone?? What if the Torah were the Law of the World?? Can you imagine the rioting and warfare??!! I still think that Someone-Significant REALLY wants the Battle of Armageddon!! Can't we all just get along?? Take a look at this!!








    After all of the madness I've considered -- you'd think I would've made up my mind by now -- wouldn't you?? However -- I feel as if I need to start over -- each and every day!! I will continue with the Modeling Modus Operandi I've been pursuing -- but this doesn't mean that I think I'm right -- and that everyone else is wrong. I am simply pursuing one particular approach to the madness. I'm not promoting this stuff -- nor do I intend to ever get on my "high-horse" and "take the show on the road". Just the opposite. The more I expose myself to the craziness -- the more I wish to become invisible and/or go underground -- and just disappear. I am highly embarrassed by this thread -- but I still think someone needed to do this sort of thing -- regardless of whether it benefitted anyone, or not. It hasn't made me a better person. Just the opposite. It has badly hamstrung me -- and horribly disillusioned and upset me. This thread is intended for Sirius-Researchers only. Unfortunately -- many in my local community seem to have been "alerted to my madness" by seemingly sinister and nefarious entities and agencies -- and this is MOST Unfortunate. I don't know if I am fundamentally good or bad -- on a soul-basis -- going way, way, way back -- but I seem to be mostly neutral and benign this time around. Who knows what I'll be like next-time (if there is a next-time)?! I frankly don't think we know much at all -- and I don't think we've seen anything yet. I'll simply continue to consider all the madness as being science-fiction. On the other hand -- I have NEVER lied about my personal experiences -- but I might've sometimes been mistaken -- or I might've exaggerated a bit. I have simply tried to model certain concepts and personalities -- which might've come perilously close to the dark-side, at times. I've tried to maintain neutrality and fairness -- toward the best of the best -- and the worst of the worst -- for better or worse -- I know not. Take a look at this!! It sort of makes you wonder -- doesn't it??!!



    Real or Fake??

    I got bored of Aliens and UFO's -- so I wrote the following drivel (relative to a listening-class): It is probably necessary to superimpose each component of Receive-Appreciate-Summarize-Ask (RASA) -- one on top of the other -- in order to properly apply Step 5 of "Julian's Five Steps" (from a TED lecture). One might Ask to Receive the desired data -- which must then be processed by Appreciating-Summarizing and Asking clarifying and inquisitive Questions. At various stages of this process -- the order of RASA might change -- and at times be all occurring at the same time -- with an equal emphasis. RASA somewhat mirrors the Scientific-Method -- wherein one Proposes a Hypothesis -- which simultaneously Asks and Answers a Question. Data is then gathered through Asking and Answering further questions -- which are pertinent to the Original Question and Answer. Ultimately, the Gathered Data is Summarized -- Conclusions are Reached -- and the Original Question and Answer is Verified or Nullified. The overall appearance and impression one observes in others -- and which one presents to others -- which might include facial-expression -- body-language -- clothing -- walking speed and style -- are Integral-Aspects of Non-Verbal Communication. Ideally -- one might Look-Sharp -- Act-Sharp -- and Be-Sharp -- with deviations from this Norm telling various stories. Experience would be determinative regarding this methodology -- and Contextual-Superimposition might play a significant role in the evaluation of a spectrum of non-verbal communication.
    enemyofNWO wrote:
    orthodoxymoron wrote:I'm pretty much in a state of despair. No matter who the "Real Bad Guys" are -- if they are removed -- there are undoubtedly some "Really Bad Guys" waiting to take-over. "Real Nice Guys" might not survive for five-minutes at the "Top of the Pyramid". Traditional-Religions might often be bottomless-pits of corruption and confusion -- but atheism, agnosticism, psychology, philosophy, politics, business, law, entertainment, etc. are simply different bottomless-pits of corruption and confusion. What if no one is genuinely good?? If powerless "Good-Guys" are placed in positions of power -- they might quickly turn into "Bad-Guys". We might be screwed -- no matter what we do (or don't do). We might've gotten our butts kicked in an Ancient Star War -- with the Victors ruling Humanity from the Shadows for Thousands of Years. Who Knows?? How can we REALLY know anything regarding history and how things really work?? I'll "Fight the Good Fight" -- but I'm not expecting "Paradise or Utopia" anytime soon...
    Remember that " Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely " . There are no check and balances to keep in line the ones at the very top .  In a previous post your wrote : quote "with approximately 400 years of Biblical-Silence. I've been wondering if the New-Testament is somehow a corrupted version of Suppressed Intertestamental Messianic Writings". I bet that corruption, misinterpretation and false translations are  inbuilt in any translated ancient text. How could you otherwise explain that an important rabbi threatened DR Strange about the revelations of the Dead Sea scrolls  ( see above videos ) ?  The biggest secret kept from the " believers " is the " flying saucers "  and alien interventions in human affairs .  The Flying saucer became " the holy Spirit " and the  Elohim became a singular entity instead of referring to a group of people . Because the church had control of the translations , then who didn't translate in an approved way ( nothing to do with the truth and accuracy ) got the marching orders .  The ancient text were used as property not of humanity but of a private  group of people that had in mind to enslave the world . The search for total control of the population is still going on .  
    orthodoxymoron wrote:I tend to agree. As I irreverently suggested before -- what if the Holy-Spirit might be the Queen of Heaven in a Flying-Saucer?? I don't mean to be mean. I'm just trying to make the insane make-sense...
    B.B.Baghor wrote:
    Are you familiar with the story of the 2 monks?

    "Two monks were on a pilgrimage and one day, came to the shore of a river, finding a woman in search
    for a way to cross the water. The monks weren't allowed, by their superiors, to touch a woman. One of
    the monks, being of a scholarly nature and helpful, chose to sort of set this rule aside and obey to the
    rule of his superiors and their belief, to be of service. He offered her, to carry her across on his back.
    She agreed with joy.

    Once on the other side, after having left the woman behind, on the shore, the two monks continued their
    journey. After about 3 hours, the monk who carried the woman, said to his companion. "You know, I wasn't
    supposed to do that" "What do you mean?" asked his companion. "Well" answered the other monk "The rules
    forbid me to touch a woman. I'm troubled by having done it". His companion answered "Oh, now I know what
    you mean, I've already completely forgotten about that woman and the incident. You still carry her on your back
    and make yourself suffer from it".
    enemyofNWO wrote: Thanks for the parable . I imagine that  it is taken from a chapter of the bible not published  yet. I hope your writing is proceeding OK .  Are you defensive about your religion? Does it upset you, perhaps  that ,in a discussion,   we revealed facts about  the Sacred COW called  Christianity ?  Please don't take personally discussions in a forum . I can assure you also that I don't carry anyone on my back and I don't have dead weight to expel . I am who I am and I accept it . Do you do anything to screw the system that oppresses us all ? I do , for dozens of years we have had the secret services of Europe and Australia on our back ..... they have spent millions of dollars , performed incredible number of operations and Psy -ops with no result . So we have something to be proud off . If only there were more people like us who work to screw the system and try to open the eyes of the ones that keep theirs wide shut , the system would collapse sooner .....

    Please don't be upset ,   we ,not always , read pleasant material . Unfortunately the world is not a pleasant place , it is a mine field ! who am I ?  I am one of millions that realized that the catholic religion is a fraud ,  after over 60 years since I woke up about it  I am still discovering despicable acts perpetrated by that criminal organization . I live in catholic country where the malefic presence of catholicism is omnipresent so i might  be rabid when dealing with the subject . I see also the pervasive influence of this cancerous religion on the politics and the society . There seem to be no end to the criminality of the church . They have the brass face to send missionary to regions  of the third world to try to convert who doesn't need to be . I don't think that the discussions with Otho are futile ,this subject is very interesting  and I think there is  some chance that  some of the discussion might influence, in a positive way,  some readers with an open mind .  Ortho ,as the rest of us , is on a personal journey and every person has his/her own interpretation of  what is searching and what is looking for .    Did you like the videos linked in post No 2   and 3 ? They are  eyes opener don't you agree ? Be well !
    orthodoxymoron wrote:In "The Exercise of Vital Powers" from the 4th season of Babylon 5 (which is depicted as being in the year 2261 A.D.) -- the statement was made that "Russia [had transitions of power] in 1917 and 2013". Mind you -- this episode was made in 1997. The Pope resigned in 2013 -- and a Jesuit became the new Pope. In "The Keys of This Blood" Malachi Martin writes about a three-way battle for control of the New World Order -- between Russia, the Vatican, and the United States. The book was published in 1990. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Keys_of_This_Blood What if Russia had a lot to do with the changing of the guard in Rome?? Supposedly -- the US and Russia might be headed for some sort of conflict. That same episode of Babylon 5 speaks of the French coming to power in 2112 A.D. I have a rare book titled The End of the World, A.D. 2133. Pope Benedict seemed a bit bitter when he spoke of "God Sleeping". I have irreverently joked that "God was just tired of all the bullshit!" All of this might not be significant -- but I find it somewhat interesting.


    enemyofNWO wrote:Thanks Ortho for the links ! I  just watched the video of Malachi Martin  posted above . There is a lot of information that is very relevant   even today .  But Martin ideas that the Pope John Paul would  unite the world on moral and ethical grounds  did not happen and it is very unlikely it will in the future ,John Paul died and things got worse . Since then the church is now associated universally with pedofilia and corruption. According to Martin already  in1990 the church had to pay 95 million dollars in compensation to children victims of sexual abuse . Martin said that the Church has the most efficient secret services in the world   . How do they do it ? The confession !  of course ! Just as a test try to confess that you know of a fictitious person that wants to bump off the pope ……… See how long it takes for the police to knock at you door ? Malachi said that the church has been penetrated by the Masons.   This happened a long time ago . The picture below is of Trieste where I live  near the palace of the Questore ( the chief of Police ) there is a church and above the door there is a date in roman numerals . The picture below is taken from my e-book chapter 19 .
    orthodoxymoron wrote:I've been thinking of the whole solar system as being one big business (in good and bad ways). The Catholic Church might be near the top of the pyramid -- but I keep thinking there's at least one or two layers of power beyond Rome (and probably not in good ways). But really -- the universe might have literally billions of star-wars occurring simultaneously -- from antiquity to modernity. How things are out-there probably has a lot to do with why things are the way they are on Earth. Most of this is speculation -- but there is some substance to it -- and it frankly scares the hell out of me. Without hearing anyone say it -- one day I thought about the possibility of bugged-confessionals -- and it freaked me out!! I just assume that ANYTHING I say is somehow recorded. That might be overly paranoid -- but this is reflective of Christian-Theology (and even Santa-Claus coming to town)!! I assume that all agencies are somehow interconnected (for better or worse). A lot of this is speculation -- but I keep hearing stories...
    orthodoxymoron wrote:What is the relationship (if any) between Dragons -- Draconian-Reptilians -- Generic-Reptilians -- Tall Long-Nosed Greys -- Small-Greys -- Generic-Hybrids -- Dragonized-Humans -- Nephilim -- Human-Giants -- Hybrid-Giants -- Reptilian-Giants -- Normal-Humans -- Angels -- Demons -- God -- Satan -- Demigods -- et al?? I might've added a couple of non-existent categories (or I might've missed someone) -- but you probably get my question. This whole-thing always seems to be an illusive shell-game. "Top" People probably get clear and concise briefings and documents -- but "We the Peons" must wade through "Endless Bullshit". I still don't know if most of the above really exist -- so I just play a stupid science-fiction game -- to attempt to understand a phenomenon which might not even exist. Strange-Beings could originate from Distant-Galaxies -- or they could be Renegade-Creations aka Forbidden-Abominations -- from Secret-Laboratories within this solar system. Who Knows?? How might Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer relate to all of this?? Does Lucifer really exist -- or is Lucifer simply the dark-side of Gabriel and/or Michael?? Also -- is Azazel an actual Angel and/or Demon -- or is Azazel simply a Historical and Eschatological Scapegoat?? Is the Creator of Humanity considered to be "Azazel"?? Once again -- I have a very difficult time getting into the Thuban material. I'm presently taking a closer look at Biblical-Prophecy in the context of Science-Fiction. I am very-wary of Prophecy -- but I've recently felt the need to understand Job through Daniel - relative to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- with unconventional approaches. I always feel as if I'm playing with burning-magnesium when I consider this madness -- and a lot of it really does seem to be madness (on purpose, in many ways). What do you think about the 2300 days-years of Daniel 8:14 originating around 168 BC -- and terminating around 2133 AD?? Does Humanity have a future "As-Is" -- or will we be terminated and/or turned into various sorts of hybrids (which might not resemble humanity as we know it)?? Was the Historical Jesus Christ really the Messiah of the Psalms and Isaiah -- or is there a Hidden Historical Messiah?? This sort of thing is nearly impossible to really know about with any certainty. I'm almost to the point of completely walking away from ALL of the stuff contained within this website -- and just go back to watching television. I might even start drinking-beer and going to football-games and baseball-games. Perhaps I should forget about ethics and truth -- and live a life of skirt-chasing and riotous-living. I actually think I might rejoin the "Rat-Race" because the Rats are Winning...
    bobhardee wrote:Orthodoxymoron -- It is a good thing that we can look at all the social, political, and other systems that are not doing well and recognize that at least we have each other to share these bits of wisdom.  We know that some are much more accurate than others and it is most frustrating to figure out which one is which.  They all see right or at least the ones that present the information so that it is believable.   I think a year or so ago I started making a list of what I believed to be right and was going to add to it but never did.  Outside of a brown dwarf coming our way, I think that biggest issue we all must deal with is greed.  The rich wanting to get richer on the backs of everybody else.  Not sure why.  I mean you have so much.....what can you do with it all other than gain power over everybody.  The next biggest problem are those people who believe that you can have a theocracy within a democracy and it not cause havoc.  Can a government that is a theocracy get along with a neighbor who does not share their values? Yes is that neighbor has a big stick and says that if you bring that s.... over here, I hit you on the head with this stick.   The third issue is how corporations seem to be taking control of the world.  I think the word for that is fascism.  They certainly are taking control of America. The last problem is somewhat of a wild card. It is the ET factor.  Are we nothing more than a zoo to which they stop and watch to see if we can figure it out enough......so that when we get smart enough, we will join their ranks? The rate we are moving, that will not  be anytime soon.  
    Bob H.
    orthodoxymoron wrote:A startling view of possible-realities is emerging for me -- which I wish to discuss less and less. It has a lot to do with Star-Wars -- Weapons -- Money -- Power -- Exploitation -- Enslavement -- God -- Genetics -- Deception -- Technology -- Etc. What if the nastiness on this planet has been somehow necessary for thousands of years?? What if God is a Galactic-Warrior (rather than someone who personally answers our prayers -- doing what we tell them to do)?? What if Nice-Guys really finish last in this Galaxy?? What if a lot of the Old-Testament and Revelation nastiness is tame compared to what really occurs throughout the Galaxy?? What if the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Secret-Societies, Royalty, Elites, et al -- are somehow necessary in the Galactic Chain of Command -- relative to managing Earth Inc.?? What if a lot of religion is really the Opiate of the People (or something similar)?? I have been modeling a Theocratically Authorized and Overseen United States of the Solar System -- with the assumption that at some level one must deal with some very powerful beings who don't like to be told what to do. What if there are HUGE fleets of 100 mile-long bad@$$teroid mother@#$%^ships with unimaginable firepower -- filled with millions of Reptilian-Warriors (with very little mercy or empathy) -- who hate Humans?? What if we've had to make deals with these guys -- just to survive as inmates in a Prison-Planet?? What if resistance really is futile?? What if Humanity is a Renegade-Reptilian Genetics-Experiment?? Do you see why I'm trying to stop thinking and talking?? I think I've gone too far -- and crossed several lines. I really think I need to back-off and do something else. I had high-hopes regarding figuring things out -- but what if those who figure things out will be culled from the herd?? There was an episode of Star Trek Voyager -- or was it Babylon 5? -- where there was some sort of a huge bomb next to their spaceship (with an internal puzzle to be solved -- which would supposedly defuse the bomb). The captain figured-out that solving the puzzle would cause the bomb to explode -- and that it was a device to remove those who knew too much -- and were thus perceived to be a threat. A lot of the forbidden-information on the internet seems to be too available -- and too easy to access. I get the feeling that the PTB are taking very careful notes -- and that we might be segregated based upon our internet activities (or something like that). I am extremely apprehensive. Jordan Maxwell kept saying that he saw no way to avoid the so-called New World Order. Perhaps the best thing to do is to simply "Get Back to Work".
    orthodoxymoron wrote:I keep thinking this Solar System (and possibly beyond) is a Big -- Dark -- Violent -- Corrupt -- Sick Network of Money and Power -- where the Bottom-Line is the Bottom-Line. Cleaning Things Up might be like Performing Neurosurgery on an Inoperable Malignant Brain-Tumor. We might be "Damned if We Do -- and Damned if We Don't." Within a few short months and/or years -- I suspect that BOTH those who "Believe in God" and those who "Don't Believe in God" are going to be Deeply-Disillusioned. The Agnostics might do better than most. That's just a sneaking hunch. "Go Anglican-Agnostics!!"














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    NANUXII

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  NANUXII on Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:31 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote:That was funny! What if the Biblical Historical Jesus is a cunningly devised fable, designed to hide a vastly superior Michael / Horus / Jesus who is strong, sophisticated, and sensual -- rather than being a simple and sexually-repressed crucified weakling? Once again, I have my theories, regardless of whether I can prove them or not. I will continue to test various theories in the context of Historical Science Fictional Solar System Governance, and I refuse to take this too seriously. Someone might be able to glean some bit of insight which might help them in their serious academic Quest of the Historical Horus...


    i think the Christ fable was " used " again this time round ( roman times ) Obviously its being recycled with the spin landing to suit.

    Could we say that Horus , Thoth , Hermes , Melchizedek were the previous incarnations he chose to embody as ? Maybe Rome saw an opportunity ? Perhaps this time round he is keeping low key .. maybe a gardiner or a mechanic ... hmmm

    If you were to look at the Divine Pymander you would see biblical texts before the bible was written , perhaps some 3500 years before Christ ( in the most recent fable )

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/pym/

    this was written by Hermes / Thoth / Melchizedek .. the trinity ?

    hmmm


    N

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    orthodoxymoron

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:40 am

    Thank-you NANUXII. I think theology and religion are more of a mess than even I think it is (and that's pretty bad). However -- I think there is a very-real theological and religious reality and ideal (but I'm not sure exactly what it is). I am not a true-believer or an atheist-agnostic. I am a possibility-thinker. This involves the good -- the bad -- and the ugly. The Christ-Question is much deeper than simply proving or disproving various portions of the New-Testament. I've even begun taking another look at Proverbs -- Ecclesiastes -- and the Psalms -- wondering why these books were not used more extensively in the New-Testament?! Something is very-right and very-wrong with the Holy-Bible. Religion (as we know it) is even more problematic. It almost seems as if this is by design -- so that human-civilization is built upon shifting-sand -- so as to be able to bring it crashing-down if desired!! I've even speculated that this world (and solar system?) were overthrown in antiquity -- with the original Solar System Administrator being The Christ -- and their replacement being The Antichrist. This might mean that The Antichrist has been ruling humanity for thousands of years!! A reinstatement of the original Solar System Administrator might be misrepresented as being an Attack Against Christianity by Satan aka Lucifer aka Azazel aka The Antichrist. I have further speculated that this solar system will revert to it's original administrator, owner, and governance-modality in (or around) 2133 A.D. (somewhat based upon a particular interpretation of Daniel Chapter Eight). I think I might've spoken to the Real Solar System Deal on many occasions (and in several different forms). I'm probably crazy -- but I'm also honest -- which is probably my ruination. Anyway -- this thing has become too sensitive and troubling for me to continue posting regarding This Present Madness. What Would Frank Peretti Say?? I once attended a Writers Conference where Frank was the keynote-speaker. He was VERY funny and profound!! That's all I'm going to say. Namaste.





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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  NANUXII on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:20 pm

    Why would you want to stop now ? i can see it can consume but its interesting none the less. I enjoy your zeal , these are the messages imbed between the lines written that we wouldnt normally consider.

    Interesting post by Burgundia and the video series lends to the notion that a person called Jesus was in and around Jerusalem between 14 ce and 64 ce ( give or take ) The stories of Christ or Jesus of Nazareth started about 50 ce so that may be the person they are talking about. I think where Roman Catholocism really took off was around 300 ad .. and during various crusades brow beating people into believing their version of somnething that may never have happend or did happen but not how it was presented.

    The Symbol of Christ impailed on a cross is more of a reminder as to what may happen if you Cross the Church. The pagan ritual of eating his flesh and drinking his blood is subtly changed in its meaning so that the ritual today is somewhat palletable .. i dont think Catholics give one thought to this as its programmed from day one to represent something its not. But they are Eating the flesh and Drinking the blood of their " saviour " what a fitting symbolism to an evil ritual cloaked in martyrdom.

    Regarding the accuracy of the bible in " predicting " events .. i would like to throw a spanner in the works and say it was written retrospectively in the future indicative ( i hope my use of english is correct )

    So what i mean is someone thats already lived the time line wrote the passages and predicted the happenings as they saw them and presented them as predictions instead of perhaps the retrospectives of a future being. So really you could say the Bible was a historical account sent back in time to help change the time line.

    If we change ... so to will the text retrospectively because it was written from a point far into the future.

    hmmm



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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  Carol on Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:11 pm

    Have you ever thought that to share in the body and blood of Christ, communion is to become one in spiritual frequency. That has been my personal experience of this and even when reading the text as one of the lecturer during the mass I would feel this spiritual energy descend and fill me up. So the ritual itself is one of an invitation to share at an energetic level the spiritual compassion that Christ represents.

    Now onto the next level of discussion. Once while sitting meditating in church I did have the experience of viewing Christ descend and being held within his embrace. (a father holding his child and child holding his father) There are no words to describe that experience as every nano particle of my "beingness" conscious awareness vibrated at a level of pure acceptance and compassion. Not before or since has such a divine situation present itself. Without a shadow of a doubt I know Christ exists. As for religion.. I'm not all that impressed with the politics of any religion nor particularly are in favor of any of them. To me the spiritual experience is where one is uplifted into higher vibrational frequencies so that our experience on the planet and with each other takes on an element of something that is precious as compared to the daily experience ho hum.

    I don't think of Christ as an intellectual exercise but only as something that can be experience though the heart at a level of pure compassion.  


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    It is the flash of a firefly in the night, the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.

    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol
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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:22 pm

    I continue to think that most religions are corrupted versions of idealistic plans (or something like that). Instead of embracing a particular religion, I have chosen to be somewhat irreverent regarding all of them. I guess my version of ecumenism is to make everyone mad -- and make everyone hate me!! I'm sort of joking -- and sort of Sirius!! I've participated in dozens of Masses -- including playing the pipe-organ. I've had several conversations with Catholic Priests. I've even attended a Latin Mass. I've enjoyed reading books by Fulton Sheen and Malachi Martin. I've also enjoyed reading books critical of Roman Catholicism -- including The Wine of Roman Babylon by Mary Walsh -- Exo-Vaticana and Petrus Romanus by Tom Horn and Chris Putnam -- books by Dave Hunt -- etc. I have a 1960 Missal -- and a Life of Christ book by Pope Benedict. I have worked as the office-coordinator in a very-liberal Episcopal church. I have sung in a couple of Episcopal church choirs -- and I was the organist for many Episcopal church-services. I have made reference to the 1928 Book of Common Prayer throughout my threads on this website -- as a possible Middle-Way between Catholic and Protestant -- Liberal and Conservative. I have even wondered if the Eucharistic-Liturgy really goes back to Ancient-Egypt (without more-recent Substitutionary-Atonement interpretations). What's interesting to me is that the Torah gives intricate-details regarding religious-ritual -- but the rest of the Bible is largely silent regarding such things. One cannot open their Bible -- and find the Mass (as we know it). One could conceivably create thousands of religions -- supposedly based-upon the Holy Bible. A HUGE religion (such as Roman Catholicism) has a HUGE amount of momentum. Changing-Directions is like Reinventing the Wheel!! Sorry if that offends -- but I'm way past walking on eggshells and doing market-research. I grew-up attending the Seventh-day Adventist church -- which is often quite critical of Roman Catholicism (and most other Religious-Traditions).

    I've imagined being a French Jesuit Organist -- in a somewhat joking and serious manner -- for modeling-purposes only. I've basically presented myself as being a Crazy, Mixed-Up Completely-Ignorant Fool over the past few years -- and a lot of this wasn't an act. I am utterly-screwed in real-life (for legion reasons). I have suggested that I am NOT a True-Believer OR an Atheist-Agnostic. I am a Possibility-Thinker (but not necessarily in the tradition of Peale and Schuller). I consider the Good -- the Bad -- and the Ugly -- as the Smart-@$$ at the Back of the Class!! This makes EVERYONE Angry. I still think this world has been purposely set-up for a Final-Jihad and the Battle of Armageddon. In the Final-Analysis -- People Will Follow the Leader and Fight for the Home-Team -- regardless of Right and Wrong -- Sense and Non-Sense. Human-Civilization seems to have been purposely constructed upon Shifting-Sand. Remember in the original Stargate movie -- where the Alien RA says they have created civilization -- and that now they will destroy it??!! I spent months with a mysterious-individual who looked me in the eye one night and said (matter of fact) "I AM RA!!" I don't know if they were or weren't -- but they were VERY different!! When I posted the hypothetical relationship between the Queen of England -- the Pope of Rome -- and Amen Ra -- they told me I had discovered something about myself. In this same conversation, they said they were sorry we couldn't work together -- and that too much water had gone under the bridge. This was three-days prior to Fukushima. I could go on and on and on. I keep repeating myself -- year after year -- mostly with zero response or interest. What's the Point?? Can someone answer me THAT???? One more thing. I just awoke from a dream regarding living on the Moon!! Then, when I walked out of my house -- I saw the Moon!! It's my tradition to whisper "What the Hell Are They Doing Up There??" every time I see the Moon!! Try Watching Science-Fiction (with the sound OFF) While Listening to the Bach B-minor Mass!! Enough Said.






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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  NANUXII on Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:17 am

    Carol wrote:Have you ever thought that to share in the body and blood of Christ, communion is to become one in spiritual frequency. That has been my personal experience of this and even when reading the text as one of the lecturer during the mass I would feel this spiritual energy descend and fill me up. So the ritual itself is one of an invitation to share at an energetic level the spiritual compassion that Christ represents.

    Now onto the next level of discussion. Once while sitting meditating in church I did have the experience of viewing Christ descend and being held within his embrace. (a father holding his child and child holding his father) There are no words to describe that experience as every nano particle of my "beingness" conscious awareness vibrated at a level of pure acceptance and compassion. Not before or since has such a divine situation present itself. Without a shadow of a doubt I know Christ exists. As for religion.. I'm not all that impressed with the politics of any religion nor particularly are in favor of any of them. To me the spiritual experience is where one is uplifted into higher vibrational frequencies so that our experience on the planet and with each other takes on an element of something that is precious as compared to the daily experience ho hum.

    I don't think of Christ as an intellectual exercise but only as something that can be experience though the heart at a level of pure compassion.  


    Hey Carol , ive had the same experience when i was young , the christ enter or decend to my body , my gf at the time saw it , she could see aura etc and i felt it , it was an amazing experience but i wasnt in church and it was 6 years after i renounced catholocism which is interesting.

    So i would whole heartedly agree about sharing the christ conciousness but i have a problem with him being depicted as crucified, then eating his flesh and drinking his blood. There is no other religion on earth other than satanism that asks you to do such things..

    I think of it this way , if i was a John F Kennedy devotee and started a church in his name to celebrate all the good things he did before he was crucified ..i mean assasinated .. would i have a photo of him over the altar with his head blown off and ask people to eat his brains and drink his blood ? that would be celebrating the assasination not his life and good deeds, No ? So putting it in that context i think it makes more of a point ( as crude as it is ) , .. i know the ritual has been shrowded in mystic metaphore but it just dosent add up at least for me it dosent , and i apologise for offending any catholics out there.

    http://www.openminds.tv/lucifer-is-helping-vatican-astronomers-look-for-extraterrestrials-970/19968



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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:18 am

    Starting churches is SO Overrated BUT if I were starting a church today -- I might call it The Church of Orthodoxymoron of Latter-Day Luddites -- and I might simply base it upon the following:

    1. Proverbs.
    2. Ecclesiastes.
    3. Psalms.
    4. James.
    5. Bach B-minor Mass.

    There is something attractive regarding ritual and continuity -- but the historical and contemporary rituals seem bloody and absurd (when one REALLY thinks about it). I am aware of several significant individuals (myself included) who grew-up in non-liturgical churches -- yet, when they became disillusioned -- they migrated toward liturgical-churches -- but all of them felt there was something missing and/or wrong with the liturgical-churches they eventually joined. I keep wondering if there's an Ancient-Liturgy which is many thousands (or millions) of years old -- which no one knows about presently -- yet which our souls retain some memory of??!! Talk About a Potential Can of Worms!!! Please consider reading Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail. edited by Robert Webber. Notice especially the chapter by David and LaVonne Neff. I identify with their experience -- yet I don't attend church anymore -- not because I'm rebellious -- but simply because I wish to be neutral and objective as I consider as many possibilities as possible. In the right context, the Seventh-Day Sabbath might be a legitimate practice for everyone on the planet -- but something is very wrong with the concept when one reads Deuteronomy -- straight-through -- over and over -- and especially when one applies it directly to modernity. I can't talk about this stuff anymore. It hurts too much. It seems as if This Present Madness will NEVER resolve -- especially when everyone seems to be non-communicative and knee-jerk reactionaries. World Without Peace and Reason. Amen.


    More than a quarter-century after Wheaton College professor Robert Webber reported a surprising migration of evangelicals to Anglicanism, an updated version of his book now provides a closer look at what keeps the phenomenon going.

    Morehouse Publishing released the first revised edition of Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail: Why Evangelicals Are Attracted to the Liturgical Church in January. Webber died in 2007, and Duke University historian Lester Ruth oversaw the revision largely by writing a preface and editing new essays and testimonials.

    “They are looking for worship that has a sense of rootedness and connectedness, especially in the sense of well-crafted liturgical texts, that reaches across the ages, is strongly tactile and tangible especially in its sacramentality,” Ruth wrote via email. “They are finding it by migrating to Anglicanism and also Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.”

    In testimonial reflections, evangelicals from various backgrounds tell how they appreciate the multiple dimensions of Anglican worship life. They value not only the centrality of the sacraments, but also how worship life consists of more than praise music and preaching. They report that experiencing a full diet of prayer and staying mindful of the liturgical calendar have enriched their spiritual lives.

    Tales from the trail are not entirely rosy. David Neff, an editorial vice president of Christianity Today who coauthored an essay for the original 1985 edition with his wife, LaVonne, writes in a new chapter that for him and others, “the charms of either Canterbury or Rome … have lost their sparkle and appeal as spiritual homes.”

    Neff is organist and choirmaster at St. Barnabas Church in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, where he and LaVonne settled in their journey away from Seventh-day Adventism. He has stayed, he said, in large measure because he appreciates ancient liturgies and his rector’s skill in managing dynamics within the congregation.

    “What has disappointed has been the leadership in both Rome and Canterbury,” Neff wrote via email. “Rome has been too conservative and controlling for me, and Canterbury too progressive and unable to actually lead. New leadership is slated for both places, so we’ll see what the future holds.”

    Many who have made the journey, Ruth said, find power in the liturgy, specifically how it doesn’t depend on emotionality for its integrity. Though Anglican worship has an affective side, evangelical contributors find “it does not seem manipulative or coerced,” Ruth said.

    “God will be worshiped one way or the other” in Anglican worship, Ruth said. “That happening is not dependent first of all upon the worshiper’s emotions or feelings.”

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    Re: The Hidden Story of Jesus

    Post  NANUXII on Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:19 am

    Orthodoxymoron wrote:The Church of Orthodoxymoron of Latter-Day Luddites


    how much would it be to join up ? i need a new scene ...


    hmmm









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